John Lennon Turns Over In Grave

[Mickey1992]

Originally posted by gofaster
Does the Bill of Rights have a place on private property? (Answer should be "yes").

Do I have the right to hold some sort of demonstration on your lawn?  Not if you don't say I can.  Am I subject to arrest if you tell me to leave and I don't (Answer is "yes").

[Erlkonig]

Here's an MSNBC story with more elaboration:

A Macy's employee saw the men in the food court and alerted security.  Downs and his son were asked to remove their shirts. Roger Downs complied, but when Stephen Downs wouldn't, he was told to leave the mall.  When he refused, he was arrested for trespassing.

...

His son points out that they were not verbally protesting or interfering with any other shoppers.
     "We were just shopping. We were wearing these T-shirts. We weren't handing out leaflets, we weren't saying anything," Roger Downs recalled.
     They may not have been saying anything, but their message apparently created enough of a disturbance to the mall employee.

http://www.msnbc.com/local/wnyt/m276307.asp

So maybe there's nothing illegal about what the managers did...but it sure does make them look like a bunch of thugs.

[Mini D]

As a little more gets presented I think I'm getting the gist of it.

I do believe something was construed as a "demonstration" of sorts.  The explanations of all the things they weren't doing imply some sort of indication of what they were doing.  If a store has a no demonstration policy, it doesn't matter if the sign is in your hand or on your shirt.

Talk about a ploy to illicit a reaction.

MiniD

[Dinger]

Yeah, the security guards were stupid.  Sure they had the authority (first amendment doesn't apply to shopping malls; that's why we're trying to build a roof over the whole US), and sure we don't know the full story of what was going on, but boy does that mall look bad.

[miko2d]

Mickey1992: Any bar/restaurant/mall/stadium can ask anyone to leave (as long as it isn't based on race/gender/age/etc.).  If that person refused, they can be arrested for trespassing.

 No, not arbitrarily. The laws regulating access to privately owned "public spaces" are contrary to freedom to control one's private property and libertarians are against those. But while such laws and regulations exist, they must be obeyed. One cannot be told to leave for "any" reason.

 However contrary to freedom, in order to operate a mall one has to get a license and sign compliance with local regulations. For example, one has to provide bathrooms for both sexes and facilities for disabled for example, whether he wants to see such people on his property or not.

 You cannot deny someone access or refuse service unless you have some reall reason - so the mall will have to prove that him wearing the T-shirt was a serious violation rather than arbitrary discrimination.

 On the other hand, if he was demonstrating rather than quietly eating, he was at fault. Let's see what happens.

 miko

[Kanth]

And he will get it in the public eye, in the courts is a different matter.

Originally posted by Mini D

Talk about a ploy to illicit a reaction.

MiniD

[Steve]

*sigh*

What the guy's shirt said is totally moot.  he was asked to leave private property and refused... this is criminal trespass regardless of what else has transpired.

Gofaster: Does the Bill of Rights have a place on private property? (Answer should be "yes").

Gofaster what you are implying is extremely dangerous.  You're implying that a person should have a right to stay on private property as long as he sees fit.  What if a guy was standing in your front yard looking in your young child's window?  Under your perception, you shouldn't be able to order him off your property, or.. if he stayerd he shouldn't be breaking any law..it's his right..  I agree that the security gaurds were morons.. but be careful for what you wish for.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by Mickey1992
Do I have the right to hold some sort of demonstration on your lawn?  Not if you don't say I can.  Am I subject to arrest if you tell me to leave and I don't (Answer is "yes").

Can I only own a gun on public property?

[Steve]

Quote: You cannot deny someone access or refuse service unless you have some reall reason - so the mall will have to prove that him wearing the T-shirt was a serious violation rather than arbitrary discrimination.

WRONG!!!!

You can evict someone off private property for ANY reason... for NO reason.  If that person refuses to comply, he is guilty of CRIMINAL trespass.  It's another matter entirely if his CIVIL liberties were violated.  

Ther is no grey area here.  The guy broke the law by refusing to leave.

[Mickey1992]

From the AP wire, left out of CNN or MSNBC story:

"Monday's arrest came less than three months after about 20 peace activists wearing similar T-shirts were told to leave by mall security and police. There were no arrests."

What most likely happened was the Suits at the mall told the security guards to have any t-shirt wearing protesters thrown out.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by Steve
You're implying that a person should have a right to stay on private property as long as he sees fit.  

Nope, I'm implying that the rights of the people extend within the boundaries of the US government.  When I exercise my right to free speech, I do it on public and private property.  The Bill of Rights doesn't mention "the right to gain access to another person's property".  You can say what you want on my land, but when I cancel the invitation to be there you have to leave.  The guy had the right to wear that shirt, but not the right to stick around.

[Mickey1992]

Originally posted by miko2d
No, not arbitrarily. The laws regulating access to privately owned "public spaces" are contrary to freedom to control one's private property and libertarians are against those. But while such laws and regulations exist, they must be obeyed. One cannot be told to leave for "any" reason.

All you have to do is put a "No loitering" sign on the front door and you can ask/tell anyone to leave.  Even if these guys were doing nothing more than sitting around as human billboards you can still ask them to leave.

[Steve]

You don't have to post any sign.  As a private property owner you can ask a person to leave your property at any time, for any reason.  No signs need be posted.  If the person does not make an immediate effort to depart the property: criminal trespass is being committed.  Guys you need to be aware of your private property rights.  For instance, in Arizona, if you ask a person to leave your property, and that person refuses, you have the right to assume that person has bad iuntent in mind and you can point your gun at that person in order to remove him from your property/prepare to defend yourself.  If ya shoot him and you cannot show that the intruder intended serious bodily harm you'll have a problem but you are within your legal right to "draw down"  on him.

[gofaster]

The First Ten Amendments to the US Constitution (Bill of Rights).  Key parts in Bold.

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


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Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


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Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


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Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


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Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


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Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


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Amendment VII

In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


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Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


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Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


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Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

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Of course, none of this really matters in regards to trespassing on private property, other than the right to a speedy trial.  Land ownership and control is one of those rights retained by the people.

[Steve]

exactly gofaster... it's a "sensational" story when just reviewed on the surface... fact is the guy clearly broke the law when he refused to leave the premises.  I have a hunch he was looking for an angle on a civil suit....I have a hard time believing he would stand his ground on principal with his child there.  If the security guards had already displayed their stupidity, perhaps the possiblity that they would use force to remove the offending party existed as well.  A reach I'll admit.. but is the small chance that it could occur worth risking..with your child there?