Author Topic: I do not agree on all points, but.....  (Read 1455 times)

Offline blitz

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #45 on: March 09, 2003, 10:33:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad

Nobody is an angel, I agree.  



OK, now we got at least 1 step in the right direction.

Nobody claims USA to be evil.

Everybody, including me, says NK + Iraq have horrible regimes .

This said : NO country is allowed to devide the world into 'good and bad' and goin to war with them as they like.

Bush crew broke a lot of glass after 9/11 but i'm sure America will find it's way back to wisdom on long terms.

That's all about.


Regards Blitz



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous

Offline Toad

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #46 on: March 09, 2003, 10:51:01 AM »
If you've been reading my posts over the long term, you'll find that I've said that many, many times and with respect to the US as well as others.

It's not news....... except maybe to you.

I think it's quite easy to divide the world into "good and bad" and do a d*mn good job of that. The abuses of humanity around the world are pretty well documented and it's easy to sort the nations that commit genocide against their own citizens from those who merely serve old lunchmeat on stale bread to their prisoners.

It's the actual "doing something" about the truly evil regimes that is difficult.

As we are seeing in the UN SC right now.

There are some nations that can clearly distinguish Iraq as an evil regime and an regime in non-compliance with UN SC resolutions on disarmament. There IS no discussion about whether they are in compliance; ALL SC members agree they are not.

The disagreement is over whether or not 12 years is enough time to give them.

Is it time to take action against "evil" or sit around another 12 years?

THAT'S the only discussion going on.. not whether or not they are in compliance.

The US is far from being the only nation in favor of going to war to bring them into compliance, as you know.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blitz

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2003, 11:15:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad


I think it's quite easy to divide the world into "good and bad" and do a d*mn good job of that. The abuses of humanity around the world are pretty well documented and it's easy to sort the nations that commit genocide against their own citizens from those who merely serve old lunchmeat on stale bread to their prisoners.

It's the actual "doing something" about the truly evil regimes that is difficult.

As we are seeing in the UN SC right now.

There are some nations that can clearly distinguish Iraq as an evil regime and an regime in non-compliance with UN SC resolutions on disarmament. There IS no discussion about whether they are in compliance; ALL SC members agree they are not.

The disagreement is over whether or not 12 years is enough time to give them.

Is it time to take action against "evil" or sit around another 12 years?

THAT'S the only discussion going on.. not whether or not they are in compliance.

The US is far from being the only nation in favor of going to war to bring them into compliance, as you know.



It's definately not easy , was never easy and won't be, as sad it might be.

Your president tries to simplify politics to just an incredible level of dumbness:
'Who's not with us is against us'
His  childish behaviour does not fit  for the No1 of a democratic superpower.


The true discussion is about Bushs and his  holy crusade as anounced by Bush and his warmongers, thats the problem.

'We go to war with Iraq with the UN or without them'
 
That was such a BS.


Would have been much more convincin if Bush had started his holy crusade with his friends in Pakistan, SaudiArabia, Agypt and elsewhere and without weapons.




Regards Blitz


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 11:20:49 AM by blitz »

Offline blitz

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2003, 11:19:44 AM »
.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 11:21:51 AM by blitz »

Offline Toad

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2003, 11:26:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by blitz
It's definately not easy , was never easy and won't be, as sad it might be.


Obviously it's not easy for you. Try opening your eyes. Reread that list from the BBC.

Many of us are quite familiar with the attitude of some Euros that there is no "good" or "bad", only shades of gray. It's understandable that a person with a strong moral compass makes folks like that squirm.

Again, it's great to see you focus on Bush and not on Hussein.

It shows you for what you are. The ability to totally ignore genocide, torture, abuse of children and outright murder by the Iraqi state so that you can focus on the "evil" of those that would stop such atrocities is an amazing thing to see in another person.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blitz

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2003, 11:50:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Obviously it's not easy for you. Try opening your eyes. Reread that list from the BBC.

Many of us are quite familiar with the attitude of some Euros that there is no "good" or "bad", only shades of gray. It's understandable that a person with a strong moral compass makes folks like that squirm.

Again, it's great to see you focus on Bush and not on Hussein.

It shows you for what you are. The ability to totally ignore genocide, torture, abuse of children and outright murder by the Iraqi state so that you can focus on the "evil" of those that would stop such atrocities is an amazing thing to see in another person.


There is no truth in the world, thats laughable.
Depends on your life, your provenance, your education, your believe, your will and many other things.

Go try  find the truth when ya mess with your baby and you'll see even between people who love each other how hard it is to tell what's the truth :D

btw Toad:  Is is it really important what we both think?

Un insectors are against Bushs war, Pope is, National Council of Churches is, the bischop of the United Methodist Church ( Bush and Cheney join them) is, half of the world is.
And you come here and tell me that all about a war in Iraq is cristal clear.?????

That's what i call ignorant :D


Regards Blitz



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 11:53:22 AM by blitz »

Offline Toad

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2003, 12:39:56 PM »
Well that may be what you call ignorant.

Totally turning a blind eye to and completely ignoring Iraqi torture, murder and genocide of children would be what then?

What would YOU call that Blitz?

Not to mention their invasion of neighbors, disregard for the terms of the UN truce after the first Gulf War and failure to comply with UN SC resolutions.

Because your inability to see the greater evil here makes you look much worse than what you just called me.

:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blitz

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2003, 12:56:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Well that may be what you call ignorant.

Totally turning a blind eye to and completely ignoring Iraqi torture, murder and genocide of children would be what then?



Good laugh Toad, tell me how many poor souls have been tortured from allies of US in Egypt, Chile, Nicaragua, El salvador, Vietnam to name a few?
And are tortured right now.



Quote

What would YOU call that Blitz?
[/B]


Evil, as every torture is, no matter it is commited by a dictatorship or in the name of freedom and democrazy.


Quote

Because your inability to see the greater evil here makes you look much worse than what you just called me.
:D [/B]


..... and this people.
Un insectors are against Bushs war, Pope is, National Council of Churches is, the bischop of the United Methodist Church ( Bush and Cheney join them) is, half of the world is.
And you come here and tell me that all about a war in Iraq is cristal clear.?????

 I like to be with them on your list. :D




Regards Blitz



America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 01:00:47 PM by blitz »

Offline Toad

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2003, 03:42:26 PM »
Be where you want to be Blitz. I think that's a good place for you, because it's no where near me. :D

We've already seen what happens when this type of guy goes unchecked, haven't we?

Your comparison's? How many have had genocide on the scale of Hussein's operation Anfal? Except maybe the North Vietnamese after they took over.......

And Anfal is only part of the story.. it gets worse.

And you find the effort to stop this offensive.

But you find that allowing it to continue, indeed, demonstrating to help it continue is some how "honorable".

There is no way we could be on the same side. Boy, am I glad of that!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline blitz

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2003, 03:48:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Be where you want to be Blitz. I think that's a good place for you, because it's no where near me. :D

We've already seen what happens when this type of guy goes unchecked, haven't we?

Your comparison's? How many have had genocide on the scale of Hussein's operation Anfal? Except maybe the North Vietnamese after they took over.......

And Anfal is only part of the story.. it gets worse.

And you find the effort to stop this offensive.

But you find that allowing it to continue, indeed, demonstrating to help it continue is some how "honorable".

There is no way we could be on the same side. Boy, am I glad of that!



There definately is a way we could be on the same side.
Just think it all over and get rid of that propaganda trash from Bush & the boys. It's never to late.


Regards Blitz

btw At least you got a letter-friend now, out there in the world :D and please don't forget to apologize to the tough people of Vietnam if ya ever go there, some honorable people already did.


America is threatened by Iraq in no way, it's just plain ridiculous
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 03:55:32 PM by blitz »

Offline Toad

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2003, 06:33:36 PM »
Look, we agree more than you think.

1. There can be no doubt that Iraq is not complying with the UN sanctions. Even France, Germany and Russia agree on that in the SC.

2. There can be no doubt that Hussein has defied the UN SC for twelve years on disarmament. France, Germany and Russia agree on that in the SC too.


3. There can be no doubt that Hussein is one of the absolute worst dictators currently tyrannizing his own people in the world. "Genocidal maniac" is a highly accurate term when applied to Hussein.

4. There can be no doubt that the world AND the Iraqi people would be better off with him out of power.

5. There can be no doubt that it is ONLY the presence of a massive Allied military organization on his doorstep that is responsible for the minor disarmament that he does agree to do.

6. We BOTH agree that military force should not be used without UN SC sanction.

****

Where we disagree is quite simple and clearly draws a line between us.

I think it IS time for the SC to authorize force. The military organization is in place and ready and MORE than competent to do this with an absolute minimum of civilian casualties. Indeed, the recent spate of surrendering Iraqi soliders indicates that it may be a "non event".

Clearly, THIS is the time to remove him from power and give the Iraqi people a chance at a "normal" existence. One without genocide, without the torture of children in front of their parents.

I can't believe that France, Germany and Russia are willing to allow this situation to continue when they could so easily change it. Here, right here before them, is a chance to REDUCE some of the evil in the world. And they are blind to that chance.




You on the other hand are quite willing to ignore all the foregoing agreement and willing to allow the Iraqi people to continue to suffer for....... some unknown, incomprehensible reason.

Seems to me that you do agree with the aforementioned items; you have in various posts.

What puzzles me is why you aren't ENCOURAGING your government to get this dictator out of there.

Seems the best you can come up with is "Well, there are other dictators too." And "We don't like Bush".

Damn fine reasons for wasting this opportunity to do the "right thing".

NOT

*********

As for Vietnam, if I owe them an apology at all, it's for my govenment abandoning the fight and allowing the North to condemn the entire country to the living death of no freedom that is Communism. And of course, an apology is due to the Cambodians, since the reunified Vietnam installed Pol Pot as their puppet and he proceeded with a genocide that rivals that of... well, you know who.

Your support of them speaks volumes. Murder and genocide is fine by you as long as they commit it. Your stance is the same on Iraq. You can excuse anything they do and justify standing idly by as people are slaughtered in the hundreds of thousands.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 06:35:59 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Puke

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I do not agree on all points, but.....
« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2003, 06:46:36 PM »
Quote
Clearly, THIS is the time to remove him from power and give the Iraqi people a chance at a "normal" existence. Once without genocide, without the torture of children in front of their parents.  
I can't believe that France, Germany and Russia are willing to allow this situation to continue when they could so easily change it.

I can believe it as far as the latter two countries who are used to and allow this sort of thing with 20-million here and 20-million there.  It's really clear this is the case when they think we need to apologize to Southeast Asia for trying to defend a region from invasion which later turned out to be a mass killing-field once we pulled out.  Turn a blind eye is par for their course.