Author Topic: Islam Is Peace! (Read 1618 times)

Dowding · « **Reply #45 on:** March 16, 2003, 05:12:36 AM »

Don't confuse the issue with facts, SaburoS!

Hortlund · « **Reply #46 on:** March 16, 2003, 06:02:30 AM »

Dodging my question Dowding?

DA98 · « **Reply #47 on:** March 16, 2003, 07:50:45 AM »

Don't forget the catholic Holy Week, wich is celebrated in some places with barbaric enthusiasm:

Eagler · « **Reply #48 on:** March 16, 2003, 09:29:50 AM »

nutjobs come in all flavors .........

don't see them nailing any children to any crosses though ....

straffo · « **Reply #49 on:** March 16, 2003, 11:39:09 AM »

Hotlund what do you think of DA98 post ?

Not barbaric I guess.

Hortlund · « **Reply #50 on:** March 16, 2003, 01:36:32 PM »

ho hoo...Dowding? Did you swallow the "submit reply"-key?

Dowding · « **Reply #51 on:** March 16, 2003, 01:45:19 PM »

I missed your post - I was kind of distracted by Eagler's pictures. I was going to post some pictures myself, but I think I'd be banned or at least admonished. Genital mutilation isn't a pretty sight.

While Western civilisations may have laws that have their origins in Christianity, I believe many of the laws are 'natural' - i.e. there to maximise the survival of the community. Murder, adultery, theft were all punished in pagan society. There were advanced civilisations before Christianiy, you know.

Your issue is the severity of the punishment. I believe that is a cultural issue, not a religious one. Read the bible; the old testament in particular describes some very harsh punishments - including stoning. Why aren't they practised in the West?

Hortlund · « **Reply #52 on:** March 16, 2003, 01:45:31 PM »

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Originally posted by straffo
Hotlund what do you think of DA98 post ?

Not barbaric I guess.

Far be it from me to critizise anybody.

Personally I think it is the wrong way to approach God.

Dowding · « **Reply #53 on:** March 16, 2003, 01:47:15 PM »

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Personally I think it is the wrong way to approach God.

Modern Muslims would say exactly the same thing about the sword thing.

Hortlund · « **Reply #54 on:** March 16, 2003, 01:53:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding

While Western civilisations may have laws that have their origins in Christianity, I believe many of the laws are 'natural' - i.e. there to maximise the survival of the community. Murder, adultery, theft were all punished in pagan society. There were advanced civilisations before Christianiy, you know.

Your issue is the severity of the punishment. I believe that is a cultural issue, not a religious one. Read the bible; the old testament in particular describes some very harsh punishments - including stoning. Why aren't they practised in the West?

Because Christianity has evolved, through the church meetings, the reformation, the counterreformation etc.

Same thing with Judaism, I think they call it the Toran or something like that (someone Jewish will correct me I hope).

No such development of Islam. There has been no reformation, no Toran, basically the text of the Koran, written ...whenever... applies as law to these people.

In Islam, weird fundamentalism is the norm, in Christianity and Judaism it is the exception.

As for the pre Christian societies...sure they had laws against murder, adultery, theft...
So..?

You still agree that the western morality code (or whatever you want to call it) we have now comes from Christianity...right?

Dowding · « **Reply #55 on:** March 16, 2003, 01:58:26 PM »

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You still agree that the western morality code (or whatever you want to call it) we have now comes from Christianity...right?

Not entirely. I refer you to my previous answer about pagan society law - natural law - which seemed to go over your head. Many of the laws we follow today have much in common with those age old laws.

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Because Christianity has evolved, through the church meetings, the reformation, the counterreformation etc.

So these things aren't in the bible anymore - they've been 'reformed right out of it'? No? In that case it is a cultural decision not enforce them and on top of that, my legal system is secular.

Hortlund · « **Reply #56 on:** March 16, 2003, 02:29:49 PM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
Not entirely. I refer you to my previous answer about pagan society law - natural law - which seemed to go over your head. Many of the laws we follow today have much in common with those age old laws.

[/b]
Well, then we disagree. The "natural laws" you refer too, please give us some more info on them. I know the Viking laws pretty well, and I suppose they could be considered to be "pagan society law", but they are very very different from the Chrisitan morals, and the morals we have today. I dont see much we have today that is in common with those. And if you are going to start quoting roman civil law or something like that, let me say that I'm talking about criminal law here.

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So these things aren't in the bible anymore - they've been 'reformed right out of it'? No? In that case it is a cultural decision not enforce them and on top of that, my legal system is secular.

Cultural desicion? If the Church says "previously, these passages in the Bible has been interpreted as meaning A, but after long consideration, we have now realized they really should mean B" that is not a cultural desicion. That is a reformation of the faith.

Yes, that brings up another point. Christianity accepts the division between Church and state, Islam does not. That means the ideal nation for the Moslem is a nation run by a clergy, in accordance with the laws and rules of Islam. Yes, the same laws and rules that hasnt changed since 600-something or whatever.

Dowding · « **Reply #57 on:** March 16, 2003, 02:46:51 PM »

I don't disagree that Christianity has influenced Western law, but I still maintain that the concept of natural law as described by Aquinas is an underlying theme running through our society and that of our descendants before Christianity. I think that, accounting for the often brutal implementations and cultural idiosyncracies that typify Viking law for example, natural law could be seen to working.

Separation of Church and state isn't a Christian concept. It wasn't that long ago that Kings and queens, ordained by God, ran the show. They were regarded as untouchables.

Hortlund · « **Reply #58 on:** March 16, 2003, 02:53:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding
I don't disagree that Christianity has influenced Western law, but I still maintain that the concept of natural law as described by Aquinas is an underlying theme running through our society and that of our descendants before Christianity. I think that, accounting for the often brutal implementations and cultural idiosyncracies that typify Viking law for example, natural law could be seen to working.

Separation of Church and state isn't a Christian concept. It wasn't that long ago that Kings and queens, ordained by God, ran the show. They were regarded as untouchables.

Whether or not it is a Christian concept is very beside the point I was trying to make. The point is, Christianity does accept such a separation, Islam does not. And I'm going to maintain that the Christian position is and has always been that the Church and the state should be separated. "Give unto Ceasar" and all that you know...

In old law, the King answered to no one but God. That did not make him supreme ruler of the Church though. Even back in 1100-something there was a clean line between the king and the Church.

As for the natural law, I'll agree on some very very basic ideas...like "it is wrong to kill, steal, rape"... if you want to advance beyond that, then it comes from Christianity.

Sandman · « **Reply #59 on:** March 16, 2003, 02:55:14 PM »

IIRC, the pagan guideline is not even that specific... It is simply, "Do not harm anyone."