The Spitfire IX

[garrido]

Does the spit lose "E" in the TnB?
sure?
does all lose in 360 beginning to 300 mph?
Was it this way really?
I find that it is an airplane that maneuvers too much and you grieve it loses "E", it hurries a lot, almost as much as the G10 and it recovers the little one "E" that it has lost at once.

Salute

Supongo

(sorry bad english)

Por si esta mal escrito (que lo estará) lo pongo tambien en cristiano. Si lo veis mal traducidmelo porfa.

El spit pierde E en los combates cerrados? seguro?
cuanta pierde en un virage de 360º empezando a 300 Mph?
era asi realmente?
me parece que es una avion que maniobra demasiado y apenas pierde E, acelera mucho, casi tanto como el G10 y recupera la poca E que haya perdido enseguida.

Un saludo

Supongo

[DB603]

S!

 It is possible to make a 360' turn without losing much of the energy.BUT U have to keep a steady(ball-in-the-middle if Ya know what I mean) G/bank and throttle.I much doubt that in the heat of battle the bank/G-load stays the same throughout the turn.It is very true that Niki and Spit re-gain their energy very fast even they pull high-G turns.But again..Is this lag or FM glitch?
 109G-10 SHOULD be able to shake almost any chaser off it's tail,but I have found myself being chased by a Niki at 5k and it GAINS even I have WEP on!And NO,he is not diving etc...Lag or FM?IMO many of the glitches can be explained by the lag/ping,but not all.
 My wish is that HT possibly could look into the FM and fix the small details people have mentioned(roll rate,weight etc. on some planes)I don't mean they should re-do the whole thing but fix the small issues.AH is good,but can be made even better IMO.And it adds to the playability too   And this was no Luftwaffe whining,since I didn't mention a single thing of the LW planes FM,except the Niki-thingy  




------------------
DB603
3.Lentue
Lentolaivue 34

[MANDOBLE]

The next example needs some numerical explanation for me:
Spit IX or V vs 190A5 or A8. It is well known that 190A5 or A8 can outdive easily any Spit, but never able to outzoom any of them. So, you start with 190A8 and Spit, wing on wing, same speed at 10k, both dives (full power) to 7k and then reover from the dive, A8 being much faster than Spit. Now both go vertical and the spit over passes easily and really quickly the 190. Well, 190A8 is much heavier and starts the climb with speed advantage so, the HP/Weight ratio and the drag should be the significant factors that compensates the inertia and speed advantage of A8.
Now we can get the HP/Weight, weight, drag and initial speed of both planes before the vertical zoom and do some calculations to prove definitively that the Spit can do what it do. Any engineer able to put here the results?

Now the data I have:

Spit IX (F):
1565 Hp sea level.
7800 lb loaded.
HP/W 0.195 Hp/Lb
Drag ?

190A8:
1970 - 2100 Hp sea level (depending on the source).
9630 lb loaded.
Hp/W 0.20Hp/Lb - 0.22HP/lb
Drag ?

If the above data is correct, the only reason to acomplish so amazing zooms should be a tremendous difference in drag.

[This message has been edited by MANDOBLE (edited 05-07-2001).]

[garrido]

Matias, porfaaaaaaaaaaaa, traduce lo que has puesto, que con el translator me vuelvo loca.

un saludo

supongo

[garrido]

Se me olvido:

No me refiero a virages verticales, si no tambien horizontales, he visto virar y virar a un Spit en horizontal, seguido por 3 aviones (yak9, 109, 190) y subir, bajar, himmelmans, volver a virar y virar, alabear muy rapido, toneles volados, etc. y tener potencia de sobra para un loop y pillar a todos y cada uno de los tres que le seguian, lo vi desde mas altura, al principio les deje, pense que era presa facil, 3 vs 1, pero cuando vi como los tiro a los 3 decidi picar, pique a 400 Mph, me coloque detras viro izd muy cerrado, completo el giro, yo segui recto, hice un zoom, miro para atras y lo veo a 600y y disparando (no medio, tuve suerte), segui subiendo como 1000 pies, y fue cuando el perdio E, hice hammer y le di, pero como es posible que me aguantase el zoom (vertical pura) despues de que el virase 360º?

Saludos

Supongo

[MANDOBLE]

Translation for SUPONGO:

Te resumo SUPO. En un zoom vertical tras un picado, el Spit IX supera con creces al 190A8, pese a tener un ratio de potencia peso inferior a nivel del mar (Spit IX F), haber ganado mucha menos velocidad en el picado, y ser mas ligero (menor inercia en el zoom). Lo unico que puede explicar esto es una tremenda diferencia en el drag entre ambos aviones, y visto lo pequeño que es el A8 en comparación a un Spit, no creo que la diferencia sea tanta. De hecho, no encuentro explicación a los zooms de los Spits (y sin comentarios sobre los del Nikki).

[LLv34_Camouflage]

Mandoble, remember to keep G's under 2 when pulling up from the dive in that Spit/190 experiment.

Camo

------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

Brewster into AH!

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."

[MANDOBLE]

Yep Camo, in fact, the climb was done only using elevator trim until 45 degrees or more nose up, a very gentle pull up. The result is too evident, the Spit doesnt close slowly, it closes really fast and then passes with no problem the A8 (both 75% fuel).

[Tuomio]

Ive understood, that the main problem with n1k is its high HP/weight combination without the realistic torque.

Im against the gameplay things, like the unprecence of torque. This game should simulate wwii planes accurately and that means, that you cant kill everyone on your first flights. Thats the issue with N1K and Spit, which are way too easy to fly in extreme situations now. And the 1k+ killing possibility makes extending very annoying, since one far ping can impair you significally (radiator seems to be located in vertical stab). That forces you to dance with the t&b planes in z&b/hybrid plane and makes the top speed obsolete in combat situations.

Good acceleration/good turning/high ammo loadout/far shooting are present in spit IX and N1K and when they dont have their main disabilities present (torque, bad diving, gun jamming) it makes them quake "turn, turn and shoot extending airplane" machines.

Its hard to lose 1vs1 in those planes if you dont save bullets, leaving only snapshot to enemy plane advantage.

[funked]

Hi Supo!

Wells and some other people investigated this a long time ago.  Spitfire wings have a high aspect ratio and low wing loading.  This means there is much less induced drag than in some heavy planes with short wings.  So it can pull more g's while maintaining airspeed.

Wells did some calculations of energy loss in a high-g turn (I forgot the exact g number) and then tested the planes in AH and compared them to the calculations.  AH and the calculations matched very well.

Zigrat also did these kind of calculations in an Excel spreadsheet, and again, it matches energy loss in AH turns very well.

Finally there is VVS data showing Spitfire sustained turn rate and g which are very close to AH results.  Best sustained turn occurs when energy loss due to induced drag equals energy gain due to engine power, so it is a good test of "E retention".

Basically the Spitfire Mk. IX is not doing anything in turns that we would not expect from the laws of aerodynamics and tests of the real airplane.

<S>

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-07-2001).]

[Karnak]

Tuomio,
I wouldn't say that the Spit has a good ammo loadout, its rather light actually.  Good fire power, yes, but not ammo supply.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[MANDOBLE]

Funked, that could explain the no E loose in turns, but doesnt explain the vertical zoom characteristic against faster, heavier and with better power/loading planes. The Spit IX will outzoom any faster P47 or 190A8 (for example). In the case of 190A8, power loading ratio decreases quickly with altitude, but the Spit outzooms them even at sea level. The difference in drag should be enormous to compensate the greater initial speed, inertia and power loading.

[MANDOBLE]

And now about nikki vs Spit IX. Spit IX outturns the nikki and outaccelerates it. But actually, very low fuel consumption on the nikki makes that most nikki pilots fly with very lo fuel while spit ones load 75 or 100%. Try to test a 75% fuel loaded nikki vs 75% Spit IX, you'll be surprised.

[funked]

Mandoble, sorry, I was replying to Supongo.

Zooms are complicated.  You have the pull-out which is a high-g turn, and will benefit a plane like the Spitfire, because it won't have much induced drag.  

Then you have the vertical portion.  For the portion where you are above your maximum level flight speed, heavy planes have an advantage.  But once you get below the maximum level flight speed for the current altitude, the plane with better thrust/weight ratio has the advantage.

So it is not a simple thing to analyze, because a different starting speed or pull-out g will change the relative performance in each portion of the maneuver.  The only way to get good numbers on this is to run a simulation, and since AH drag/lift/thrust relationships appear to be extremely accurate, I would just use AH instead of programming my own.    

As far as Fw 190A-8, I think there is something funny with thrust/weight ratio.  Zig has posted about this in the Aircraft Forum.  If you take the Fw 190A-5, and add enough power at low level to get the top speed we get in Fw 190A-8, then the Fw 190A-8 should climb a lot better than what AH and Fw data both say.

As far as P-47, it will out-zoom a Spitfire IX easily if done right.  Just ask Sancho or Ammo or Frenchy.  In my Spitfire IX I have seen the situation many times where I am closing on the tail of a P-47 in a dive, but he pulls away.  Then I make a gentle zoom and he does the same, and catches me easily.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-07-2001).]

[MrSiD]

Mandoble: Spit IX outturns n1k? Outaccelerates it too?

I must be getting those lag effects too, since I've found out that I die unless I kill the n1k first in 2-3 first scissor snapshots. Initially spit holds edge when it has speed, but N1k will retain its E so much better that eventually the spit stalls out of the fight. This needs some research done..