Author Topic: US woman killed protesting in Gaza  (Read 3892 times)

Offline Eaglecz

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #135 on: March 18, 2003, 02:38:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tuomio
Lets investigate:

Woman lays in front of military vehicle, which is doing military operation in warzone. Women dies.
 


What exactly is warzone in Palestina ?

Im afraid that whole palestina is warzone....
if so, we can consider whole Israel as warzone as well, so why are you wondering about flying bus ?

Offline Nashwan

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #136 on: March 18, 2003, 03:05:10 PM »
There's extremists on both sides, who don't want peace, they want victory over the other side.

There's a nicely illustrative story in today's Ha'aretz. Monday night was the annual pilgrimage to Baruch Goldsteins tomb. Goldstein is the man who walked in to a mosque in 1994, and shot dead 29 Palestinians at prayer.

The "pilgrims" dressed one of their number up in an Ariel Sharon mask, and staged a mock execution. They don't like him because he isn't right wing enough for him.

Goldstein's grave was quite a shrine in the Meir Kahane park in Kiryat Arba, named after the Rabbi who spent time in prison in America and Israel for terrorism, and who advocated ethnically cleansing all Arabs from Israel and the occupied territories. Kahane was banned from standing in Israeli elections because of his racism, and Goldstein committed the worst terrorist act after the signing of the Oslo accords. They are both honoured amongst the residents of Kiryat Arba, the main Jewish settlement adjoining Hebron.

Why do you think the Hebron settlers are there? to increase Israeli security? The IDF has lost dozens of men, and devotes thousands of troops to protecting them.

They are there to take the land away from the Arabs. It's as simple as that, and they make no pretence about it.  After Goldstein murdered the Arabs, the IDF imposed a 30 day curfew on Hebron, and closed an Arab market. The Arab market has since been taken over by more settlers, even though the shops are still legally owned by Arabs, who are no longer allowed access to their property. And now another area adjacent to the market has been declared off limits to Arabs, to provide security for the settlers now living in the market.

Another article in today's Ha'aretz, on the army protection for illegal outposts in the territories:

"One of the controversial duties is protecting the illegal outposts in the territories. A Peace Now report shows there are 107 such outposts. Let's assume the protection of such an outpost - including a perimeter defense and protection of the roads and checkpoints leading to it - employs no more than 30 soldiers (recently, there were reports that Shirat Hayam, an outpost in the heart of Gaza, has 40 soldiers protecting it, while other reports say between 10 and several dozen soldiers protect each outpost). The total number of reserve days required for the mission every year is 1,171,650 - 107 outposts x 30 soldiers x 365 days.

Even if we assume there's a certain degree of overlap on the access roads and checkpoints leading to the various outposts, and there are security installations in the area that would, in any case, be guarded, this is nonetheless hundreds of thousands of days of employment for soldiers around what are illegal outposts.

This number does not include the massive security for illegal outposts that were retroactively legitimized, like the Jewish enclave in Hebron, which requires thousands of soldiers to protect it, or other outposts that were turned into legal settlements.

It doesn't matter if the guards are reservists or conscripts, since together they make up the activities of the army. What's important is the number of days required to protect an illegal activity and the influence on the allocation of the army's resources. Two principles should be examined in this context: the first touches on the mere fact that people who are breaking the law are winning the state's protection. The second is how the army uses soldiers for the purpose of an activity that is under public dispute.

The first question is simple, which makes the lack of public debate about it even more puzzling. Would it cross anyone's mind that a gang of burglars would call up the police and ask it to protect them during a robbery because the area where the crime is taking place is considered dangerous? Would anyone accept a criminal's request for protection while they are transferring drugs, weapons or money to another gang, a dangerous activity in its own right? The answer, of course, is no. In a normal country, criminals and security forces are on opposite sides of the fence and do not coordinate their activities and cooperate with each other.

Thus Israel has been turned into the only country in the world where the criminals don't offer protection, but demand it - and get it. The army provides the protection to the illegal outposts as a state organization meant to protect the lives of its citizenry, avoiding all ideological activity. In the current reality, it's reasonable to assume the army would not allow its soldiers to take part in seminars about the illegal outposts or call on soldiers to settle in them, because that would be considered controversial. But, at the same time, under orders from the government, it sends soldiers to protect those outposts even if it means endangering lives. The government thus requires the army to be an accomplice to an ideological crime. "

Offline Vulcan

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #137 on: March 18, 2003, 04:32:33 PM »
Airguard, IMHO this has nothing to do with the driver running her over. IMHO this is nothing more than an unfortunate accident.  Captain Virgil Hilts post pretty much sums it up for me.

From the photos my perspective is she got out of the way but not far enough.

So heres the question, what would you call someone who let their children play near working bulldozers? Would you call that person a handsomehunk?

What would you call someone who played chicken with a bulldozer? I'd call them a handsomehunk (unless they're in a bigger bulldozer).

Its unfortunate so many here believe some hastily put together propaganda that has more holes in it than a block of swiss cheese. Its unfortunate you assume the driver was out to kill her.

On the political side, I wonder if she stood in front of Muslim clerics with her bullhorn trying to prevent them from teaching 5 year olds the virtues of suicide bombings?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #138 on: March 18, 2003, 04:48:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan

On the political side, I wonder if she stood in front of Muslim clerics with her bullhorn trying to prevent them from teaching 5 year olds the virtues of suicide bombings?


Decide for yourself Vulcan - that's her in a recent picture.

Offline Vulcan

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2003, 05:06:46 PM »
At least 3 of those boys have got the "Man this squeak is CRAZY" look on their face!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #140 on: March 18, 2003, 06:09:35 PM »
Yea when I saw that picture it erased any doubts I had about my tremendous joy of her death.

Offline Rasker

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #141 on: March 18, 2003, 06:30:21 PM »
hmm here's an idea, reduce Israel's annual aid X million dollars per year for every illegal settlement that exists, and raise it (or cut Palestinian aid) Y thousand dollars for every civilian (or soldier?) murdered by terrorists.  I don't know if we'd want to give the same rate for civilians in illegal settlements as for the others, distinguish between civilians in Israel proper and civilians in the west bank.  The point is to create incentives for the Israelis to renounce dreams (and practice) of creeping annexation, and for the Palestinian authority to control terrorist acts by its own people.  If it doesn't work, and the figures are set right, we would wind up totally monetarily disengaged from the region, making us less of a target for the crazies.

Offline Rasker

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #142 on: March 18, 2003, 06:33:08 PM »
heres hoping Iraq is less of a headache than Israel-Palestine :)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #143 on: March 18, 2003, 08:06:55 PM »
I say cut all other aid to Israel and just send them more hippies and bulldozers....

Offline Rasker

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2003, 08:08:59 PM »
wouldnt the one cancel the other out?

Offline Rasker

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #145 on: March 18, 2003, 08:10:22 PM »
Why dont we give each side some desert territory on opposite sides of Nevada? Be cheaper in the long run.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2003, 08:15:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rasker
wouldnt the one cancel the other out?


Yea the bulldozers would cancel out the hippies...

Offline Vulcan

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2003, 08:17:26 PM »
I don't know if anyone noticed, probably not because the US takes very little interest in other countries politics unless it disagrees with there... but very high on the profile of the English Parliamentary debate was sorting out Israel and Palestine.

There were some very heavy hints of things to come.

I got the feeling that some very 'backroom' negotations have gone on between the US, the UK, and Israel. I think that tied in with the 'liberation' of Iraq is that Israel will a) stay the diddly outta the fight  and  b) Israel will begin a serious peace plan with the Palestinians which will include withdrawal of occupied terrotories and recognition of the Palestinian state.

Could be some good news finally.

Offline Hangtime

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2003, 08:19:44 PM »
i sure as hell hope so vulcan. we may be doing the 'right thing' with saddam.. but we sure as hell have not been doing the 'right thing' w/ israel for the last 50 diddlying years.
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Rasker

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US woman killed protesting in Gaza
« Reply #149 on: March 18, 2003, 08:20:59 PM »
well, all the major recent progress in the Middle East occurred after the last Gulf War, when Saudi and other Gulf states cut off the PLO subsidies for Arafat's support of Iraq and forced him to the bargaining table.  Could be Israel will offer major concessions that the Palestinian legislature will take whether or not Arafat wants to accept them.