Author Topic: WEP (in)fidelity  (Read 547 times)

Offline -ik-

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« Reply #15 on: August 27, 1999, 10:07:00 AM »
our fuel was better than your fuel! Was not! Was to! Was not! Was to! nya nya nya!  

Bad Omen

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« Reply #16 on: August 27, 1999, 12:16:00 PM »
Jochen:
FYI, PYRO or NATEDOG or one of them already posted that they intend to have several "wing" configurations available for the Spit, your choice. That was the whole point in another thread trying to find historical markings of a unit that used several Spit types.

chisel

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« Reply #17 on: August 27, 1999, 10:57:00 PM »
Actually Jochen, the Germans were behind in Hi-octane fuel development.

Maybe thats why they relied on water injection?

Then again there fuel injection system was way more advanced than the brits  

Redefining fuel? Sounds like a job for the beauracrats <- I cant spell either


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Chisel
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[This message has been edited by chisel (edited 08-27-1999).]

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #18 on: August 27, 1999, 11:05:00 PM »
Romanian and russian fields provided a lot of gas but it was just crude oil. Germany didn't have the infrastructure to redefine it.

That's one of the reasons why 190 was prefered aircraft later I think.. if i remember correctly radial BMW engine could run on less redefined gas then DB's...

As for Spitfire IX e or c,  whatever   It's still a beutiful HS cannon that will make a hole in your bellybutton  

Wait.. let me check out when the germans first made modificaton kits for 109's from 20mm to 30mm's blah blah blah few months ..blah blah blah... and bullets were HE not api.. blah blah blah...

Iddon's testing shows that 109G6 with MW50 is 10 mph too fast at 25k !!! nah nah nah nah

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Thermo

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« Reply #19 on: August 27, 1999, 11:16:00 PM »
One thing missing is the relative performance enhancement of each engine and its combination of water/methanol injection and various and sundry supercharging affects that comprise what we are calling WEP.

What % increase in HP and efficiency resulted from the application of WEP on the PW radial ? and was this different than the % change that upside-down watercooled thingy in the 109's got from WEP ?

I'll bet Pyro has some skeletons in the closet on this subject......

JHL


[This message has been edited by Thermo (edited 08-28-1999).]

Offline Pyro

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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 1999, 11:02:00 AM »
You're right, I am missing something.  I'm missing how I could be missing something on something that is missing, i.e. a released version.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
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Offline Pyro

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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 1999, 11:22:00 AM »
BTW, I don't know what you mean by having skeletons in the closet on this subject, so feel free to elaborate.  I'd much rather have someone ask me a pointed question than not and just make an assumption, whatever it happens to be about.  I can't answer everything, but I don't and never have subscribed to the strategy of just telling people what they want to hear.  



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Offline -ik-

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« Reply #22 on: August 30, 1999, 12:44:00 AM »
hmmm I don't know about that fd-ski, perhaps the 109G-6 of warbirds is a compromise between GM-1 and no GM-1? If so it's speed is right between a 109G with GM-1 and one without.

Offline Jochen

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« Reply #23 on: August 30, 1999, 01:29:00 AM »
 
Quote
As for Spitfire IX e or c, whatever  It's still a beutiful HS cannon that will make a hole in your ass

Yes but the 7.7 mm's instead of 12.7 mm's makes me only tickle  

 
Quote
Wait.. let me check out when the germans first made modificaton kits for 109's from 20mm to 30mm's blah blah blah few months ..blah blah blah... and bullets were HE not api.. blah blah blah...

I don't know about you but I would like to see planes and oncoming RPS as accurate as possible. If you do not want to contribute, well, what can I say?

My viewpoint might be little leaned towards Luftwaffe planes but I certainly do not little RAF planes either. I just happen to have more books and info about Bf 109 and Fw 190 than other planes.

If you spot inconsistency in my posts, please feel free to point them out. Constructive criticism is always welcome.

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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

funked

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« Reply #24 on: August 30, 1999, 03:21:00 PM »
Another thing,

The more I try to find out about WEP on German planes, the more conflicting information I find.  

Thermo

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« Reply #25 on: September 01, 1999, 10:06:00 PM »
...You're right, I am missing something. I'm missing how I could be missing something on something that is missing...

My head is still kinda spinning after reading that one.

With regards to this and the other post my gut feeling is that detailed engine performance data for WWII vintage aircraft engines must be difficult to find, and in some cases not available.

My assumption is that since the data is not available for some aircraft, there must be some guesswork as to the relative affect of WEP on that engines performance.

I wonder aloud if the effect of WEP on engine heatrate, (output/fuel consumption) is accounted for at all.

I guess that post came off sounding accusatory, it wasn't meant to be. I have alot of respect for Pyro and what he has accomplished. I'm just curious more than anything else.

(shrug)

JHL

Offline Tomb

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« Reply #26 on: September 03, 1999, 06:21:00 AM »
a chat to an engine friend of mine reveals

putting higher octane in a lower octane rated engine=minimal difference

putting lower octane in a high octane rated engine = bang

to get the benifit of high octane your engine must be designed to run on it and this involves higher compression ratios be they engine or supercharger/turbocharger

i posted some time ago wep /none wep numbers for some selected engines and the fact that merlins gain power as they go higher (up to a point)due to a feature of thier supercharger design

on MW50 it was often stored in a huge drop tank under the belly of a 109..originally it wes jettisonable but on later models it was not (Irma Behalter tank i think is was called)using MW50 left a charecterisic black trail during use from a 109 due to the engine running rich...fuel use went through the roof and it was a sort of piston "reheat" or "afterburner" in that you got extra acceleration and power at massive fuel use.

on the fw190 it left a charecteristic white plume this time during use(condesation due to presure drop behind engine and over the wing)

from what i have unearthed so far it would appear the rocket firing fw190s had the MW50 system removed

it would also appear that rocket or under wing guns on 109s could not be fitted if GM1 was fitted..i would speculate that the containers(bottles?) ..no doubt presurised ..were in the wings but have not been able to find catergoric eveidence that this was so(or not).

it would also appear that the GM1 versions had lower compression than other versions (not verified/refuted yet)

walter krupinski states that his unit of 109s had "special engines" which while good at altitude with boost were hopeless at lower altitudes..i wonder if thats a 109 with GM1 he is talking about.

my overall impresion is bomber intercepters would use MW50 while fighter interceptors would use GM1 in the case of the 109.

in the case of the 190 rocket armed ones or underwing weapon enhanced ones they lost the mw50 while GM1 was tried but with very little success

in the case of supercharger gears the setting were "M" and "S" on the merlin 61.s..they could be an auto setting but sticking it in high ("S") did NOT give you more power necessarily, LESS in fact due to the extra work the engine had to do and the supercharger waste gate dumped the extra air to save the engine from blowing up.

the time to change gear was "when it made no difference" according to the manual and that was around 20000ft(assuming auto not selected)..if you changed too early the boost would drop as the extra work was done by the engine and any extra air was dumped over the side...too late and you would see the boost rise as the extra air was used to increase performance.

the merlin had automactic boost control and this meant that if the supercharger produced too much air ..it got dumped...as you got higher less air would be dumped and thrust horsepower is a function of true airspeed so as you got higher the engine could do more work and this meant the engine produced more power.

the DB(me109) engine had hydraulic supercharger control and worked similar to an automatic gearbox..as you got higher it "changed gear" (no gears infininatly varible)..increasing hydraulic presure increased the supercharger speed...but this took more horse power from the engine..the DB as fitted to the 109 could maintain is horse power up to about 20000ft and then fell off (unless boosted by an oxident such as GM1)

the standard merlin 61 gained power up to around 15000ft and then fell back to around 20000ft where the 2nd gear ratio now took over and power once more increased  to around 30000ft and then fell off.

while the DB engine would have a flat power output up to 20000ft or so the merlin 61 would have two peaks  around 15000ft and 30000ft

while MW50 would add 300-500hp the power line would remain similar up to 20000ft

if GM1 was used then it would still be the same but the extra power output would have more effect at higher attitude (thiner less air so less oxygen) becasue it is an oxident(GM1 contains oxygen).

the advantage of the super/turbo chargers is they dont run out while fuel additives do

the merlin on 27 liters capacity could put out 1700-1800hp at its peak without additives..the DB605 was around 1400-1500hp with some thing like 44 liters and the big motor in the thunderbolt got 2000-2000hp on a capacity you could put lake geneva in

think i'll go and plot some graphs on engine performance at various altitudes... (dont know if im a sad case or dedicated..hard to tell

have a nice day

Tomb  


Offline Jochen

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« Reply #27 on: September 03, 1999, 08:41:00 AM »
Hats off to tomb, excelent information! From where have you got all these tidbits? We need more posts like these.

Those white trails in Fw 190 would be neat. (hint hint, wink wink, say no more say no more   )

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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline Pyro

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« Reply #28 on: September 07, 1999, 01:46:00 PM »
Thermo,

No prob, I'm just a little tired of some of the things I've been hearing.  There is some good info on engine performance through various altitudes at different manifold pressures.  This is not always the case though and you end up having to interpolate/extropolate a lot of data.  That's not necessarily a bad thing though, because a lot of the information in the first case is probably interpolated/extropolated data anyway.  This information can also be derived from performance analysis.  The best results come from looking at the problem from multiple directions and trying to prove what is correct.  If you take a single piece of data and base all your conclusions on that without doing anything further to verify its validity, you can end up with something not so good.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
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Offline Tomb

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« Reply #29 on: September 08, 1999, 04:54:00 AM »
that information comes from various piston engine books...the best and most informative by bill gunston

Tomb