Discussion about Gen.Franks Strategy

[Pongo]

"Shock and Awe" Seems to me to be a war fighting philosophy based on the result of GW1 with out the stimuli.


I think that they are being unnessasarily reckless and that the loss of Turkey was a huge diplomatic fuddle to go along with many others.
A plan that seems to require the total collaps of the Iraqi military as if they had a 1991 scale air assault on them, without that assault is very very risky.
My big concerns, Infantry heavy forces attacking against a concentrated force of armour that can remain largly hidden till the mother of all sand storms removes the US long range missle advantage, the air advantage and the Thermal optics advantages in one fell swoop. These changes dont make the Iraqs equal to the US forces. But they even the odds along way from the big advantage the US units hold with those in place.
I think the Iraqis would love the shot at 1 to 2 loss ratios vs the US.
That is where the light composition of the US forces would really hurt. M1s can take a hit from a T72 and return fire..Hummers and Bradleys can not.
I would say this war is going as well as it could for the Iraqis right now. They are getting hammered...but thier units are intact and they are waiting for the right circumstance to  spring a big counter attack probebley of short range under cover or weather that evens the playing field or favours their concentrated armour.

"Shock and Awe" "Hearts and Minds" Smoke and Mirrors" "Flash and Bang"
Wageing a war that predisposes the enemies lack of will to fight is silly silly strategy. The Iraqi militarys natural state is not collapse. It was collapsed very delliberately in GW1 as Toad has said.  I said on these boards a month or more ago. I hope that the US military isnt so silly as to suppose they will be able to get the Iraqis to defeat themselves. Looks like they might have that hope.
Most of this was inflicted on Franks by Brumsfeld. I would imagine the intitial missle attack was as well. It looks very much like a real war..and will have real war casualties. Something that we westerners have grown unaccustomed too.

[Hristo]

So far we've seen US troops marching through desert and making impressive gains. The troops seemed to avoid cities and raced to Bagdad.

Now, how do they plan to take Bagdad ? It is 5,000,000 people city. Won't be quick and easy.

[john9001]

for too many reasons to list here , i don't like general tommys tactics, some that have already been mentioned.
it seems like his "shock & awe" has turned into "poke & probe".

i don't like out running my supply train

[Hangtime]

we control the key airfields in the west.

we control the oil fields in the south,

we control the only seaport iraq has.

we own the sky.

no formation of iraqi armor can survive an engagement with coalition armor.

control of iraq as a country by saddam has already ceased. he can export no oil, do no buisness, recieve any material support from abroad.

final choices are this:

how do we take baghdad?

seige, house to house, MOAB, or iraqi capitulation.

answer depends on saddam or his succesor.

[Toad]

Hang, not to pee in yer Wheaties, but if reports of "bumper to bumper" traffic in the supply train are true and the heavy stuff is way off up front and we're bypassing towns known to hold enemy forces.....

what does that suggest to you? Does it raise any caution flags?

[Raubvogel]

The real war hasn't started yet. I would bet that we will manuever forces into position around Baghdad, then stay put while the Air Force pummels the defenses for quite a while.

[Hangtime]

my weaties have been pissed in before.

you figure they got enough armor in those burgs to break through the air, arty and armor supported containment forces in place to keep 'em there??

remember.. jstars is watching. anything big enough to be a threat force-wize has to not only get past detection by j-stars, but be able to defeat our anti-armor air strikes and arty once they engage..

the supply line is temporaily vulnerable to small unit strikes.. but any sortie in brigade or larger force will be destroyed rather quickly. if small unit attacks develop as factor threatening the real integrity of road supply, then road supply can be re-instituted for the baghdad envelopment from the western airbases we now control.

i think tommys got a pretty good plan..

[weazel]

Professionals talk logistics.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by Hristo
So far we've seen US troops marching through desert and making impressive gains. The troops seemed to avoid cities and raced to Bagdad.

Now, how do they plan to take Bagdad ? It is 5,000,000 people city. Won't be quick and easy.

Of course... it's easy to make impressive gains in the vast empty desert.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Hangtime
i think tommys got a pretty good plan..

I agree, and I can't believe some of the pissing and moaning I've been hearing in here after the unfortunate loss of a small number of American lives yesterday.  I wish the war could be prosecuted without any loss of life on any side, but that's just not war.

As to some of the comments in here suggesting that the main attack force has outpaced the support... what of these reports that Toad cites saying that the traffic is bumper to bumper?  So which is it?

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Hangtime]

before we get to involved in secong guessing the mans prosecution of the war, might be a good idea to look at what his experience with war is.

General Franks was commissioned a second lieutenant in 1967 as a distinguished graduate of the Artillery Officer Candidate School, Fort Sill, Okla. After an initial tour as a battery Assistant Executive Officer at Fort Sill, he was assigned to the 9th Infantry Division, Republic of Vietnam, where he served as Forward Observer, Aerial Observer, and Assistant S-3 with 2nd Battalion, 4th Field Artillery. He also served as Fire Support Officer with 5th Battalion (mechanized), 60th Infantry during this tour.

In 1968, General Franks returned to Fort Sill, where he commanded a cannon battery in the Artillery Training Center. In 1969, he was selected to participate in the Army's "Boot Strap Degree Completion Program," and subsequently attended the University of Texas, Arlington, where he graduated with a degree in Business Administration in 1971. Following attendance at the Artillery Advance Course, he was assigned to the Second Armored Cavalry Regiment in West Germany in 1973 where he commanded 1st Squadron Howitzer Battery, and served as Squadron S-3. He also commanded the 84th Armored Engineer Company, and served as Regimental Assistant S-3 during this tour.

General Franks, after graduation from Armed Forces Staff College, was posted to the Pentagon in 1976 where he served as an Army Inspector General in the Investigations Division. In 1977 he was assigned to the Office of the Chief of Staff, Army where he served on the Congressional Activities Team, and subsequently as an Executive Assistant.

In 1981, General Franks returned to West Germany where he commanded 2nd Battalion, 78th Field Artillery for three years. He returned to the United States in 1984 to attend the Army War College at Carlisle, Penn., where he also completed graduate studies and received a Master of Science Degree in Public Administration at Shippensburg University. He was next assigned to Fort Hood, Texas, as III Corps Deputy Assistant G3, a position he held until 1987 when he assumed command of Division Artillery, First Cavalry Division. He also served as Chief of Staff, First Cavalry Division during this tour.

His initial general officer assignment was Assistant Division Commander (Maneuver), First Cavalry Division during Operations Desert Shield/Desert Storm. During 1991-92, he was assigned as Assistant Commandant of the Field Artillery School at Fort Sill. In 1992, he was assigned to Fort Monroe, Va. as the first Director, Louisiana Maneuvers Task Force, Office of Chief of Staff of the Army, a position held until 1994 when he was reassigned to Korea as the CJG3 of Combined Forces Command and U.S. Forces Korea.

From 1995-97, General Franks commanded the Second Infantry (Warrior) Division, Korea. He assumed command of Third (U.S.) Army/Army Forces Central Command in Atlanta, Ga. in May 1997, a post he held until June 2000 when he was selected for promotion to general and assignment as Commander in Chief, United States Central Command.

General Franks' awards include the Defense Distinguished Service Medal; Distinguished Service Medal (two awards); Legion of Merit (four awards); Bronze Star Medal with "V" (three awards); Purple Heart (three awards); Air Medal with "V"; Army Commendation Medal with "V"; and a number of U.S. and foreign service awards. He wears the Army General Staff Identification Badge and the Aircraft Crewmember's Badge.

whats not mentioned is his first combat tour in vietnam.. as an enlisted man, doorgunner and crew chief in a huey. this man came up to field grade rank through the ranks.. one of very few men still in uniform to do so.

this man knows logistics, combat, communications, integration of forces and the diffrence between inept command structures and effective ones... and how to project force worldwide.

[Pongo]

Start a thread about the guys resume then if thats what your interested in.
I bet the overwhelming issue is that he does what he is told. And he was told to attack Iraq with the forces he had. Promised the northern front right up to and one day into the war he was told to prosecute anyway with the forces he had. Now he is to create a northern front with the 101st apperently.
He is doing what he is told. Largly the way he was told to do it I would imagine.
Shock and Awe isnt his policy its the Pentagons policy.
If everything goes perfectly you are right and US techology will make it largley imune to Iraqi counter attack. If things go a little wrong they will still be fine with some serios casualties.
If they get some real bad weather luck...they could have a serios bloody nose.
Watch that footage of the Brith section takeing that one isolated building at night and imagine a city with 250000 Iraqi defenders.

[Toad]

I'll hold my peace. That long a logistics trail with "bypassed" enemy forces all along the way makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck though.

And I've have felt a WHOLE lot better if those Republican Guard units had been getting 2000 pound "leaflets" for six weeks before we drove up to see if they'd like to just surrender.

OK. I'm out.

We'll see.

[Hangtime]

Start a thread about the guys resume then if thats what your interested in.

now, now.. lets not get testy because there's homework required.



point i'm trying to make is the guy in charge of this circle jerk is not us.. and there's nobody on this board that has 1/100th the qualifications franks has.

it's certainly apparent that amongst us armchair generals (and in part thanks to the under-informed talking heads on T.V.) some doubts are surfacing as to the effacy of stringing out 400 miles worth of road supply.

my 30 year outta date tactical sense scares the **** outta me too when i see a 400 mile long supply line... but this ain't vietnam, and it sure as hell ain't stalingrad.

[Dune]

Toad's right in many ways.  

This version of the Allied army is much smaller than the last one and it's smaller than the one they wanted.

Troops there as of 18 Mar 03: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_toe.htm

Now look at the units still en route: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat_030127-alert.htm

Units scheduled to have been deployed include the 2nd and 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiments, 1st Cavalry Div and the 4th Inf Div, amoung others.  Most of these are units that were scheduled to come in through Turkey and open a northern front.  These are also armor-heavy units.

In other words, at least 1/3 of the planned Allied force (and some of its heaviest) are still on a boat somewhere.   What they are not doing is coming down through Kurd (ie, friendly natives) controlled territory and putting presure on Baghdad with armour and air cover.  The distance from Turkey to Baghdad is also much shorter.

So, instead of the Marines and UK troops taking the ports and cities on the coast and having time to pacify them, they are now trying to push on Baghdad.  The Marines are doing it in ARMORED LANDING CRAFT!!  Those are the ones getting the hell shot out of them by RPG's.  And the 3rd Inf Div is being forced to go hell for leather to Baghdad to end the war.  I believe it would've probably been used to take the countryside originally.