Author Topic: Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.  (Read 1831 times)

Offline Pongo

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2003, 12:01:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Pongo.....

Well...thanks for confirming what I already knew...appreciate the honesty.

I believe you to either be young, in which you have an excuse or just wrong. No point in discussing it any further, at least here on these boards....I prefer eye to eye discussions and I hate typing.

Later


We allready established who was wrong Rude.
You type another opinion and you'll be wrong again.. So its best for you that you pretend your above debating the issue.
My opinion that the US will be in for hell week in Iraq win or loose is a no brainer. You have to reach into the realm of science fiction to find a US goverment that has ever understood Muslims.
Just last week the US was sure that Turkey would cave in and let them launch from Turkish territory.

Myself I only spent 5 months living in a Turkish muslim village. And I dont pretend to understand them.

Offline Rude

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2003, 09:57:06 AM »
This is no debate....insulting your opponent is not a debating skill I was taught in debate.

It's simple....you delight in American failures and hope you can add this current war to the same list you keep.

Regardless of what you might say in the future, I stand by my country, it's president and their decision to do what they and the vast majority in this country feel was necessary to protect America's long term interests, the interests of the Iraqi people and the Middle East in general.

I further contend that as to my original belief, that in the southern cities, had not the fedayeen kidnapped children, threatened Iraqi men and their families, we would have seen the very thing I originally stated....lack of a will to die for Saddam and a sincere gratitude for the chance for a better life. News of this form of liberation in the south, had it spread to Baghdad, which it may still, could result in a much easier realization of our goal and intent with a minimal loss of US and Iraqi life....that is what I remain hopeful for.

Communism was defeated in Russia and Eastern Europe politically...Germany and Japan required direct and intentional violence....the same will be necessary in Iraq.

I don't pretend to have all of the answers....I do however understand this....doing what is right in your own personal life or on the worlds stage, most often is not easy nor does it come without sacrifice.

This board is full of folks who stand on the sidelines, uninvolved either personally or by nationality, tossing out their so well informed opinions of the US and it's actions, all the while doing so completely for free. I have no respect for those people nor their methods.

Offline Toad

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2003, 10:28:04 AM »
I don't think the people of Paris took to the streets waving US flags on D-Day +10 either. Paris wasn't liberated until August 25th, IIRC.

While I think the early estimates of the Psy-ops guys were typically over-optimisitc, I also think it's a bit premature to decide whether or not the Iraqis will be glad to see Saddam gone.

Given that the reports of the Iraqi paramilitaries shooting their own fleeing civilians, the reports of Iraqi POW's that their own officers were shooting their mates that didn't fight probably have some substance, I think we may have to wait until the threat is actually removed before we can make any informed judgement at all.

The people of Umm Qasr may well give us the first inkling of how we'll be received.

Until the threat of Saddam returning is permanently removed, I don't think we'll see their true feelings.

Again, time will tell.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Pongo

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2003, 12:40:43 PM »
Your right I wasnt debating I was showing you how assinine your previos statements were. Now you have apperenlty disowned those statements. But that is assinine too. To deny that the estimate was ever made when you yourself made it.

Saying I delight in US casualties isnt really a form of debate. But you have villiefied every one that disagrees wth the war just on the principal that apperently anyone that thinks the US is wrong to invade is evil or stupid or cowardly.
I howerver have told you why the US is wrong and that must trouble you greatly.

You may or may not know that Germany and Japan both had existing diplomatic traditions that were reienforced by the allies after the war. They had existing standards of civility and comunity in their nations that had to be dusted off and reinforced by the allies after the war.
The US army has been in Germany for 59 years now. And the US military has had a presence in Japan for 58 years. Will you be in Iraq for that long?
In neither country have there ever been large scale post war guerilla activity. That will not be the case here.
No democratic tradition. No comunity no real nation. Seperate groups forced together by the Brits that largely hate each other.
You would do well to study the Palistininian situation more then the German and Japanese ones.
Im sure that people told your president that. At the same time they told him that Shock and Awe wouldnt work.

You cannot counter this postition Rude. It is the base truth. Total US success in the first day of the war would still face this truth. The US has no chance of a peaceful benevolent Iraq. All they can do is take control of those oil fields and fight a protracted guerrilla war. And of course kill Sadam. Bush has the power to force this war on your coutry without concultation. A great deal of the population of your country will support him as to do otherwise is deemed treacherous. The rest of the world is not so constrained. The US people dont know what they are getting into.  You clearly do not.

Offline Rude

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2003, 02:36:25 PM »
As to disowning any statements previously made, I stated the following...

Quote
Well, if you're looking for me to admit that I was wrong as to waiting outside Bagdad and the victory being that simple....yes, I was wrong and openly admit it....if you're implying that I said it would be over in one week, then you're putting words in my mouth.


Selective memory?

My mention of past regimes and dictatorships was direct and to the point...I never compared those in relation to establishing democracy in Iraq....that is a choice which they have not had to this point, but they will. What they choose to do with it will be their free decision to make...you against that as well?

As to a peaceful and benevolent Iraq, only you see the US as expecting that....we made a choice to disarm and remove Saddam and his ability to proliferate WMD in an effort to protect ourselves, and by that very same removal, we believe that the Iraqi people will fare much better without him than with him.

Oil? You're not one of those we're after their oil guys are ya?

And in closing this warm and friendly little chat we've had, I don't vilify anyone....perhaps it's the fact that you don't live here in the US...you don't have friends or relatives fighting in Iraq, you're bitter about some past childhood experience or you just don't like the Rude you seem to know so well. Whatever the case may be, this little exercise in futility has ended for me....got better things to do.

Cyas Up!

Offline Toad

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2003, 03:37:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Bush has the power to force this war on your coutry without concultation.


Most of what you posted is opinion which you are indeed entitled to.

However, this just isn't true. Bush alone could not have launched this war. It too the acquiesence of Congress back in October of 2002 and the vote was strongly in favor in both houses of giving him authorization to use military force.

So there was and will continue to be consultation with the rest of the elected representation.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Pongo

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2003, 12:39:21 PM »
You are correct Toad.

Rude.
Did you notice that once again you tried to find some trauma in my life to explain my deviate behavior of being opposed to the invasion of Iraq?
The double speak in your posts is comical. You never compared the German and Japan experiance to Iraq? Are you on crack? That is exaclty what you did.
Go back to your ignore mode. Your making an bellybutton of yourself again.

Quote
My mention of past regimes and dictatorships was direct and to the point...I never compared those in relation to establishing democracy in Iraq....that is a choice which they have not had to this point, but they will. What they choose to do with it will be their free decision to make...you against that as well?

Offline Rude

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2003, 04:33:17 PM »
Ya know, why don't you just come clean and admit that you don't really care for me that much.

Just tell it like it is would ya and be done with it....at least I could respect that.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2003, 06:55:15 PM by Rude »

Offline T0J0

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Dune's "From the I told you so" Dpt.
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2003, 06:49:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Expecting to win a war in a week is ridiculous.


Exactly... and will take as long as it takes.. Only the media expects a war to be won in a week..