Author Topic: Any late war PTO's in near future?  (Read 2819 times)

Offline tzr

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Any late war PTO's in near future?
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2003, 12:42:18 PM »
Nifty,

I LOVE the FM2:D

I will fight N1k2 or tonys in it any day!!

Offline Nifty

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« Reply #46 on: April 04, 2003, 01:47:50 PM »
ok, I apologize for generically including VF-27 in any whining.

(I bet no one else around here apologizes for making a mistake.)

The N1K2 has only been in like 3 setups in the past 12 months.   One was a fictitious Slot setup where it incurred some whining.  It remained perked and at a rear field.  Then there were the Russia vs Japan fantasy setup in the Kurils.  No whining there.  Then there was a setup where the N1K2 was perked and available at one rear field.  This turned out to be a mistake, and the plane was perked but available everywhere.  Some people still complained, but not much.  Maybe Karnak and myself imagined the whining, when it was really the CT staff that had just sequestered away the plane from the beginning.  Or maybe we were projecting the vast whines from the MA into the CT.
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Offline 1Duke1

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« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2003, 03:26:14 PM »
Quote
I LOVE the FM2



What he said.....the FM2 is just plain wicked :D
Duke

Offline Slash27

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« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2003, 04:08:41 PM »
Well some my whine Nifty but you wont here it from us. I dont want to speak for other Allied squads but I  doubt they would have a problem either. Dont let individual whiners talk for all of us.:D  

Offline ergRTC

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« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2003, 04:24:35 PM »
Thanks nifty, sorry about the tone in that last one ("why cant we all just get along!" ;) ).  I think you are right about the setups too.  Besides that russia setup (gag), I dont think it has been included as a 'real' component of a setup in maybe 9 months.  It was in quite a bit when I first started in the CT, a little over a year ago now I think.  Those setups were all nik ki zero vs f4u and f6f.  And of course those strange setups using that mindano map that pitted 190s and 109s against the navy planes.

Offline brady

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« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2003, 04:38:59 PM »
The Kuriles is NOT a Fantisy set up, the one whear I had US NAvy planes in to was but the Russians did invade those islands and did fight the Japanese in Augast 45.

  Nifty is generaly right in his assesment of the way the previous late war set up's have gone. Presently I am of the mind that any future late war set up set up should incluce Free and unlimited Georges and Hellcats and FM'2, with limited or Perked Hog's Since the Hogs have aprox. a 45 mph spead advantage over the George's. A big part of the problem is also that the Allies have a ton of fighters from this time frame to pit aganst realy only the George, ya I know their are A6M5's and Tony's but they are not realy competive So it generaly just comes down to the George fighting all the allied planes, unless we limit the Allied plane set in some way, another thing that sucks is that the Wildcat can easly Dogfight a George, so the George has no real advantage in this area, and can be picked off from the Faster Allied planes in zoom and boom atacks, so it is Stacked realy.

 Advantage Allies:

  Speed

   Effective Firepower Range

  Durabality

  Climb

  Exceleration

  Jabo, and Bomber

  Paraty:

  Turnin Fighting

   I excluded the Zero from the last example since it is so out clased from the Other allied fihters as to be almost usless.

    The above also asumes that the Hog's are in play take them out and it brings parity to Spead catagory, howeaver the Hellcats are still faster though not by a huge margine.

Offline eddiek

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I remember that one, Nifty.........
« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2003, 04:56:56 PM »
Quote
BTW, slightly off topic, but you guys really underestimate the value of the FM-2. It can easily hang with a Yak9-T in a 1 v 1, and not just in a turn fight. It can hang in the vertical with the Yak. I fought Eddiek in his FM-2 and me in a Yak9-T. He (and that Cat) impressed the hell out of me in the fight. I underestimated that plane, and he handed me my arse.


I remember how I was ticked off at getting vulched by some guy in an La5 a couple times before I was able to get into the air.
Can't remember if I got him or someone else did.....:confused:
You made the same mistake in that fight that lots of Allied pilots get when flying the mid to late war stuff against the A6M2, A6M5, etc..........you got impatient.
You had me on the ropes the entire fight, up til you lost your patience and started pressing too hard:  Ya had alt and speed on me, all I could do was try to stay close and under you to make you burn your E.  You finally did, and when we entered that vertical maneuvers phase, you had pretty much given up most if not all of your E advantage.  When you did that, and we got into the low speed stuff, I was able to "control" my plane (just barely) through judicious use of the throttle, flaps, and rudder.  In other words, I was wallowing like a pig on ice, just trying to keep you in my windscreen, waiting for you to get slow enough to engage on some sort of an equal basis.  Nothing magic there, I thought then and still do that the main reason I was able to win that one was because you got frustrated.  I'm not a Shane, or Fester, or Leviathn...........just a below average stick looking to have some fun.

That being said.........

I've flown both sides of this fictitious "it's not fun for the guys who get BnZ'd all the time" line.  I flew both sides in the Fin-Russ setup, the Tunisia setup, and the last slot setup.  I flew the German rides til the Russkies were down on numbers, then I switched and flew VVS iron a bit.  Same with the Tunisia setup, although I did not fly the Spits as much (leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I do), and flew both sides for the Slot setup.
All it comes down to is decent SA and knowing what your ride is capable of.  So the myth about TnB versus BnZ not working doesn't hold up, at least not with me.  Make the guy doing the BnZ can be fun, all you have to do is make him frustrated and commit to getting the kill no matter what the cost and you can add another scalp to your collection.


I don't personally agree with Brady's viewpoint, because I have flown in setups recently that had matchups where one side had a speed advantage over the other and still had fun.  It's his setup, and he's going to run it the way he wants.
But IIRC, the CT was set up initially to allow some historical or quasi-historical plane matches.  From mid-42 onwards, the US supply system had planes in the works that were equal to or superior to the Japanese planes.  Not the fault of the Americans that the Japanese pretty much stuck with the A6M series, doing little more than upgrade it here and there.  Add the Ki-84 somewhere down the line, please, cause it was a capable fighter.  But restricting plane setups because of your own beef with HTC's available Japanese planeset is not, IMO, the way to go about it.
I'd think that running an historical setup, with the A6M's, and the Tony, against the available USAAF/USN planes would do more to prove your point of the need for another Japanese planeset than this restriction you impose.
I got nothing against you, Brady, but looks like you may run into one of the 60's style protests in here if you keep this up"
"What if Brady threw a war, and nobody showed up?"

Add the Ki-61 and F4U-1 as perk planes, perk them high enough to make it risky to use them, deply them sparingly at a select few bases, and see what happens.
F4U-1=20 perks
Ki-61 =17 perks

That way, you wouldn't see much of either of them for a day or two, and sure not in large numbers.

Offline ergRTC

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« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2003, 06:09:16 PM »
1.  Nik2 is well armored.

2.  What the hell is your deal with speed?


If I followed your philosophy I would never up a plane but the p51.  

The allied version of the nik is the hurri2c.  Handles great, wonderful cannons, strong airframe, oh wait, it hasnt got shat for climb or speed!!!!!  WHAT AM I DOING!!!!!  JESUS CHRIST SOMEBODY SAVE ME!!!!! QUICK GET ME A SPIT 9 ENEMA!!!!!!!

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2003, 08:35:13 PM »
His "deal with speed" is that it is the single most important performance aspect of a fighter, by far.  With that much of a speed advantage the Allies never have to worry about being shot down, they simply zoom down at the Japanese and then run, climb, return and do it all over again.  This is very frusterating for the Japanese players and is the biggest factor in my persistent request for the Ki.84, which would greatly narrow (but not eliminate) the Allied speed advantage.  On the deck the Ki.84 would be just about as fast as the F4U-1D, though it is significantly slower at altitude.


As to "fear of facing the Hog", that's BS.  I have no problem facing the F4U in either the Ki.61 or N1K2-J (most players would want the N1K2-J), but I lack any confidence that the N1K2-J would be allowed freely.

Further the volume of whining from the Allies about niki dweebs (I am not saying VF-27 does this, but the rank and file of the casual Alled CT player does) and demanding that we fly a real aircraft (read "target") is very annoying.  I normally don't squalch channel 1 in the CT (like I do in the MA) so that I can exchange s and chatter with all the other players.  With channel 1 filled with moronic niki whines I'd either log off or squelch channel 1.


BTW, I was 1 kill to 0 deaths in the A6M2 against the F4U-1 in that setup and didn't do any Ki.61 ferrying crap.  That didn't change the fact that I had to be constantly on lookout for the stupid F4U-1 ferryers, greatly hindering my ability to engage the F4Fs.
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Offline Arlo

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« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2003, 09:09:07 PM »
You won't hear it from VF-17, either.

Quote
Originally posted by Karnak

BTW, I was 1 kill to 0 deaths in the A6M2 against the F4U-1 in that setup and didn't do any Ki.61 ferrying crap.  That didn't change the fact that I had to be constantly on lookout for the stupid F4U-1 ferryers, greatly hindering my ability to engage the F4Fs.


LOL! As you should be. I don't see much of an argument in a statement that basically equates to "I coulda got me tons more Wildcat kills if it wasn't for my having to be on guard for Corsairs."

That being said, I've already agreed that the A6M2/Wildcat matchup is fine for early PAC.

 I'm looking into options for getting an acceptable historical/semi-historical/somewhat believable alternate history LATE PAC setting in the CT so I can fly my ride there. I don't think "If you like F4Us, stay in the MA" is a rational argument or a good way to promote the CT, personally. (Not saying I've seen you say that ... but I have seen it said by some surprising sources).




;) :D
« Last Edit: April 04, 2003, 09:18:03 PM by Arlo »

Offline tzr

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« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2003, 09:15:48 PM »
Speed is not evey thing....

the plane with the best K/D ratio in WWII was....Brewster Buffalo    

I will take on a La5 ,Yak or N1K2   in a FM2 any time:D

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2003, 09:32:43 PM »
The FM-2 should not be included in the late war setup.  Sorry.

It operated off of jeep carriers and was not usually found along side the F4Us and F6Fs.  Including it in the CT gives the Allies a one-two punch against the Japanese.  The N1K2s and Ki.61s can't match the Allies in speed, and they can't break turn or they'll end up in a turn fight with the better turning FM-2s and lose that way.  It becomes a no win situation for the Japanese.

I'd sugest:

Allies:

B-26B
C-47A
F4U-1D
F6F-5
P-38L
P-51D
SBD-5
TBM-3
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
Panzer IV H
PT Boat


Japanese:

A6M5b
B5N2
C-47A
D3A1
Ki.61-I-KAIc
Ki.67
N1K2-J
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
PT Boat


The advantage is rather steeply on the Allies side, but its not as lopsided as the scenarios we've had in the past that either denied us the N1K2-J or included the Seafire and gave us the one-two knockout punch.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2003, 09:35:47 PM by Karnak »
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Offline Slash27

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« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2003, 09:42:45 PM »
Give me that set up all day.

Offline ergRTC

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« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2003, 09:51:37 PM »
fm2 out does the nik?  I am just asking, I have not tried that match up (wonder why?).   I thought they would be about equals with a slight advantage to the nik.  I think the nik would have the definite advantage because of climb and speed, plus the quick kill.

I like the nik cause of its spitfire (read ufo) handling.  Rarely have I reversed on somebody in the fm2 and stayed on their six long enough for a good shot.  Niks and spits have this uncanny ability to do a tight reverse (say you pass above it 1k and it reverses directly on your butt and stays there).  

Back in the RTC days we used to fly niks as our major ride and it was a very competent plane against any enemy.  

I know f4us are fast, and my squad has some very fun strategies for using that to its utmost (we call it the chain), but it is only useful and fun when you are dealing with a much larger group of enemy fighters.  

We once did a little duel with another squad, and we decided to all take f4fs they all grabbed spits (I think, maybe p51s).  The f4fs cleaned house.  

Speed is something we all like to have but we dont always get all of the advantages.  


As far as perking goes, I dont think the nik should be perked for a late war scenario.  The problem is that it is included as a 'keep them from reseting plane' which leads people to believe they are a part of a setup.  Same with the p40es in the south of the slot setup, and the kis and the north.

I think this would all be fixed by having a late pac scenario next week!!!!  

How bout...

bostons
f6fs
f4us
fm2s
p38s
f4fs

vs....

a6m5
a6m2
nik2s
ki61s
109g6 in for the ki84
or would the 190d be a better replacement?  
Maybe we can beg for a ki84 skin.


Yes yes?

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2003, 09:56:38 PM »
The FM-2 out turns the N1K2 by a comfortable margin, as does the F4F-4.  I did some crude number calculations some time ago and I think both Wildcats might turn better than they should, but my knowledge of how to get an accurate prediction is to poor for me to trust.

In a one on one the N1K2 dominates the FM-2 so badly its not funny, but when the N1K2 is also dealing with F4Us and F6Fs it loses its ability to BnZ the FM-2 with impunity.


109G-6 sucks donkeys compared with the Ki.84.  I'd rather go without subbing anything.  I just don't think any late war setup that includes the FM-2 is viable.

Well, maybe this:

B-26B
C-47A
FM-2
SBD-5
TBM-3
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
PT Boat

Against

A6M5b
B5N2
C-47A
D3A1
Ki.67
LVT-2
LVT-4
M-3
M-8
M-16
PT Boat
« Last Edit: April 04, 2003, 10:01:10 PM by Karnak »
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