Author Topic: The Iraq-Al Queda connection (Read 2896 times)

Hortlund · « **Reply #90 on:** April 07, 2003, 02:15:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
They fought and were loosing when das reich entered the town.

more number as you love them :

139 SS were killed (the SS alleged they were prisonner)

99 civilian were hanged
about 300 people were send to death camp.

What are you talking about now? Tulle?

Vulcan · « **Reply #91 on:** April 07, 2003, 02:18:05 AM »

Oh, and guys, look up Abu Wael

straffo · « **Reply #92 on:** April 07, 2003, 02:22:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
What are you talking about now? Tulle?

you asked no ?

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
Yes...so did you notice the "-marks? What exactly do they tell you?

Chalk this one up to your poor english comprehension Straffo.

Not only that, the quote you pulled was regarding Tulle, we were talking about Oradour remember.

You do know what happened to the German garrison in Tulle...right?

Hortlund · « **Reply #93 on:** April 07, 2003, 02:37:19 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
you asked no ?

Yes, I just wanted to make sure we were talking about the same thing.

What is your source for the 139 SS killed at Tulle? If I remember correctly (and without checking my books) the Tulle garrison was surrounded and under attack by the Marquis. They radioed for help, and units from akl abt, DF regiment attacked the partisans and broke through to the garrison. When clearing the town, several mutilated German bodies were found.

Now, my question, if I remember correctly, the SS casualties were fairly low, like less than 10, and certainly not 139 killed. The Whermacht garrison however might very well have had that number of casualties. So did you say "SS" but mean "Germans" or do you want to maintain that 139 SS were killed?

straffo · « **Reply #94 on:** April 07, 2003, 02:49:40 AM »

if you prefer :

139 German were killed (the SS alleged they were prisonner)

Is that different ?

How 139 soldier killed compare to 97 (not 99 I've made a error) civilians hanged from their own balcony and about 300 deported ?

straffo · « **Reply #95 on:** April 07, 2003, 03:03:51 AM »

Btw I suggest you buy this book :

Verbrechen der Wehrmacht. Dimensionen des Vernichtungskrieges 1941-1944

ISBN 3-930908-74-3

It's a superb 700 + page book full of informations.

Hortlund · « **Reply #96 on:** April 07, 2003, 03:12:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
if you prefer :

139 German were killed (the SS alleged they were prisonner)

Is that different ?

How 139 soldier killed compare to 97 (not 99 I've made a error) civilians hanged from their own balcony and about 300 deported ?

There was a difference between garrison units and SS Panzer divisions yes, but only when it comes to aspects of combat quality etc, not when it comes to the value of a human life.

I dont think the SS alleged that all 139 were prisoners either.

*argh, goes to check sources*

40 men from III./95 (the garrison unit) were found executed near a school with signs of mutilation and torture.

Let me pull up the entire quote:

Quote

They showed signs of execution, and local civilians reported the men had been killed after dropping their weapons and surrendering. Only an SD officer with them had a pistol in his hand. Most of the bodies were mutilated, some had had their genitals cut off and stuffed into their mouths. Others had been covered with excrement. One man had holes in his heels with a rope through them, and a ruined face, indicating that he had been tied to the back of a truck and driven around. Other bodies were found around town, bringing the total German dead to 64. The III./95 had reported 80 missing, meaning several were unaccounted for. And 9 more Germans died in rescuing the garrison (SS losses)

So I dont think anyone alleged that all the German losses in Tulle were prisoners. But of cource, the fate of the 80 missing soldiers can only be speculated on.

Actually the correct number of civilians killed/murdered/executed is 98 (but you were close). All the men found in Tulle was rounded up at the local ammunition factory. Then the mayor of Tulle, the Das Reich Ic SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Aurel Kowatsch, and other local officials "picked out from these men all non-residents and suspicious individuals". From these suspects, 120 men were picked out for execution, but after realizing there were several teenagers among them, those were let go and 98 were executed.

I didnt know about the 300 deported, but I do not doubt that number. It happened after the SD moved back into the town yes?

Do you know who those 300 were? Were they picked at random or were they the the rest of the "non-residents and suspicious individuals"-group?

straffo · « **Reply #97 on:** April 07, 2003, 04:04:05 AM »

Random like my uncle ,he was 14.

Fyi he didn't come back.

and hanging civilian from their own balcony is not what I can call "rounded up at the local ammunition factory"

straffo · « **Reply #98 on:** April 07, 2003, 04:09:39 AM »

Btw is still recommand reading this book : Verbrechen der Wehrmacht

It's hard but it break some convenient myth about the Wehrmacht and being writen by German it can't be suspected of being biased.

Why instead of copying http://www.dasreich.ca/ger_oradour.html

don't you read the other side version ? :
http://www.dasreich.ca/oradour.html

Hortlund · « **Reply #99 on:** April 07, 2003, 04:16:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo

and hanging civilian from their own balcony is not what I can call "rounded up at the local ammunition factory"

First all men were rounded up at the local ammo factory. There 98 men were picked for execution. Those 98 were hanged by soldiers of the pioneer platoon, DR akl abt. I dont know where they were hanged, but if your relatives say they were hanged from the balcony's, then I believe that.

Hortlund · « **Reply #100 on:** April 07, 2003, 04:17:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
being writen by German it can't be suspected of being biased.

I think I have read parts of it. It is very much about whermacht war crimes in Russia...yes?

Anyway, I disagree with the quoted sentence.

straffo · « **Reply #101 on:** April 07, 2003, 04:23:29 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Hortlund
I think I have read parts of it. It is very much about whermacht war crimes in Russia...yes?

Not only , I've seen the exhibition in Vienna some one year ago.

Quote

Anyway, I disagree with the quoted sentence.

the unbiased part ?

Hortlund · « **Reply #102 on:** April 07, 2003, 04:28:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
the unbiased part ?

Yes.

straffo · « **Reply #103 on:** April 07, 2003, 04:34:36 AM »

yep , perhaps.

But the convenient myth about the Wehrmacht not doing atrocities ,had to be broke no ?

Not that the Wehrmacht was full of mass-murderer brainwashed killer like the SS but it was not completly innocent either.

Siaf__csf · « **Reply #104 on:** April 07, 2003, 06:52:07 AM »

The funnyest part is that the US are co-operating with the Kurds who allowed AL-khaeda to operate on thier territory..