Author Topic: Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?  (Read 4810 times)

Offline Ripsnort

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2003, 08:15:23 AM »
Depleted Uranium question:

What is the tougher material:
Tungsten tipped or Depleted Ur.?  And why?

Offline davidpt40

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2003, 08:38:17 AM »
Bradleys can carry TOW missles.  I bet they used them for the kills.

Offline StSanta

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2003, 08:39:29 AM »
MiniD; I'd suggest there is a substantial difference between the 30mm Avenger gatlin gun of an A-10 and the 25mm slow firing gun of a Bradley.

The A10 doesn't knock out a tank with one or two rounds, usually hit with about 10, and there ain't much armor in the world that can withstand it.

The Bradley's probably used TOW's to knock the T-72's out. Or maybe they had infantry carrying the VERY lethal Javelin anti tank missile. That one is the most nasty piece of anti tank weaponry I have seen, and it is very very fortunate that only the US employs it in this conflict. Have a film of one being test fired against a combat loaded T-72 - nothing is left of the latter after the impact.

Offline Boroda

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2003, 09:02:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Depleted Uranium question:

What is the tougher material:
Tungsten tipped or Depleted Ur.?  And why?


Wrong question.

Modern "soft" rounds are more effective then old-style "hard" projectiles with metalloceramic or tungsten-hardened cores. "Soft" round "wears-off" into a mushroom-shaped structure with the "leg" of the mushroom moving forward. It makes armour flow like liquid, but doesn't actually melt it (even a cummulative HEAT shells don't "melt" or "burn through" the armour).

Sorry, it's hard to find English words for the terms they taught me 12 years ago.

Still I don't see any way for a 25mm cannon to damage a T-72. Maybe only optical equipment, periscopes/triplexes and fire control. Also hitting a cannon can be dangerous, it's almost inprobable but such things happen.

That guys (if they exist) are expremely lucky and brave. A 125mm D-81 shell should turn a Bradley inside-out, "fur inside".

Offline narsus

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2003, 09:10:55 AM »
Gotta agree with boroda here, The badleys 25mm shouldn't kill a T-72 from the front. The new TOW's have a much better chance of knocking them out.

Remember these guys reporting are the same ones that have said F-16 are taking of from carriers LOL.

Offline davidpt40

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2003, 09:50:18 AM »
Now I did see a program on the discovery channel a few years ago that said a Bradley could kill a T-72 from the rear with its 25mm cannon.  Maybe the Bradleys maneuvered around for a rear shot.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2003, 09:57:00 AM »
Nope there were reports from GW1 of bradley knocking out T72s with the 25mm gun, and these were testimonials by the actual crews who did it not ignorant media guys. Why do you all think they shot at the thickest armor? The 25mm is damn accurate and very powerful and for example they can aim for the very thing gap under the turret and penetrate in the turret ring area. Onece a round gets inside a T72 its all over because thouse ignorant russian fools have unprotected and uncompartmented ammo lying all around in the aoutolader carusel and around the tank - T72s cook off like nothing else. :)

So yes its possible and it has happened.

Offline miko2d

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2003, 10:11:53 AM »
A stream of 25mm-30mm projectiles from an APC - Bradley or even BMP-2 - could easily and quickly disable a T-72 - and probably any other tank - without actually penetrating it's main armor.

 An AP penetrator from a tank would probably go through the APC without causing much damage. A HE tank round hitting close to an APC would probably tip it over.
 Of course shooting with a HE or especially HEAP rounds (there was no indication that iraqis ever used DU ammo) requires much more precise range determination and better lead estimation on a moving target. If the Iraqi tanks were equipped with parallax rangefinders instead of laser ones, they might as well have been shooting blanks.

 It's all about the first shot, quality of the crew, available intelligence and of course surprise.

 It takes even a good gunner seconds to make a shot - if he is expecting the target to appear. A gunner obviously cannot stare through the sight for hours on end - after a few minutes of concentration he becomes useless and needs rest. That applies to any kind of gunner - a tank gunner, a sniper, etc.

 The attacking APCs' gunners probably had good idea they will be shooting soon - and where the target would be. The defending tanks may have been unmanned - or with crews sleeping inside.

 Attributing the victory to the machinery misses the main contributors - the training and exellent command, control, communications and intelligence that US troops posess.

 miko

Offline Mini D

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2003, 10:14:47 AM »
Sorry StSanta.. you're confusing ROF with penetration.

A depleted uranium tip should be able to penetrate that armor.  A 30mm for sure, a 25mm would be to a lesser extent, but still capable.

Both should take similar amounts of rounds to take out a tank.  Its just that one can get 10 rounds on target in .1 seconds while the other needs 3 seconds.

MiniD

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2003, 10:22:51 AM »
The Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II uses the Gau-8 30mm cannon (basicly an electric GATLING gun that fires cannon rounds). It is the kinetic enfergy of the depleted uranium projectile that yields the effectiveness against armor, and not the rate of fire. The rate of fire allows you to put enough rounds on the target to assure that you hit and penetrate to something vital while flying at 400MPH. If you can place a round with sufficient kinetic energy to penetrate to and destroy something vital on the right place on the target, you don't need more than one round. The 25mm cannon fires a depleted uranium projectile with sufficient kinetic energy to get the job done provided you put the round in the right spot. Shot placement should not be ignored when you're talking about gun vs. armor.

It is not necessary to completely destroy a tank, have it brew up, or even kill all of the crew to effectively remove it from combat (knock it out). You merely have to make it unable to manuever, and unable to aim and fire effectively.

Frontal assaults on tanks are foolish, especially in a lightly armored vehicle. The U.S. learned this decades ago when fighting German Tiger tanks while equipped with the Sherman M4 which had less armor and a less effective gun.


To think that this lesson was completely forgotten and to assume that Bradleys would use a frontal assault against a T-72 is really foolish.

The advantages the Bradley had should be obvious to any who study armor tactics. First, the T-72s were stationary (while they may have been "hull down", unless they were buried the only exposed part of their hull was likely the REAR, where there is thin armor, and the engine and drivetrain are). Second, there were M1 Abrahms tanks involved in the action (if you're in a T-72, and there are M1 Abrahms tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles attacking you, which one are YOU going to be most concerned about?). Third, the Bradleys while exposed, were in motion, providing a somewhat difficult target. Fourth, the U.S. forces likely spent more money on training alone (you should see some of the training at Fort Knox for example) than Iraq spent on tanks, ammo, fuel, and personnel.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Boroda

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2003, 10:47:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nope there were reports from GW1 of bradley knocking out T72s with the 25mm gun, and these were testimonials by the actual crews who did it not ignorant media guys. Why do you all think they shot at the thickest armor? The 25mm is damn accurate and very powerful and for example they can aim for the very thing gap under the turret and penetrate in the turret ring area. Onece a round gets inside a T72 its all over because thouse ignorant russian fools have unprotected and uncompartmented ammo lying all around in the aoutolader carusel and around the tank - T72s cook off like nothing else. :)

So yes its possible and it has happened.



GH, if the armour is penetrated - the crew is already dead. The particles from the inside of the armour simply shred everything inside, plus the "excessive pressure" kills everyone.

Storing ammunition as low as possible is IMHO the right way. At least a lucky shot at the turret will not blow the whole thing up. The absence of autoloader is the only reason to store ammo in a turret.

I have serious doubts that 25mm on a BMP will be able to penetrate T-72 from any angle.

I am not a specialist, Miko is the person who knows all this things much better then anyone here.

Offline Tuomio

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2003, 10:50:43 AM »
I wouldnt want to be in close quarters receiving end from Bradley in any tank. When your turret gets 5 round burst continously, something will break fast. Maybe the bullets wont penetrate, but they surely destroy everything external from that tank. Sights and whatnots, i bet the barrel dont like it too much if it gets few hits from 25mm DU round.

Meanwhile other Bradley can flank fast to get a side shot. Range shooting is whole another matter ofcourse. Then you need big caliber stuff.

Offline Mini D

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2003, 11:05:57 AM »
BTW... one thing that is being somewhat overlooked here...

Some bradlys have the equipment necessary to knock out a T-72.  Of course, they must rely on alot of missing by the T-72, because they all have enough to easily knock out any bradly.

BTW...  I saw a pretty good special on snipers where they had .50 cal rounds that were penetrating the engine armor of T-72s.

MiniD

Offline miko2d

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2003, 11:06:53 AM »
Boroda: GH, if the armour is penetrated - the crew is already dead. The particles from the inside of the armour simply shred everything inside, plus the "excessive pressure" kills everyone.

 Not necessarily. The inside is covered with 2-3 inches of reinforced rubber to contain the paricles.

 The hull-down position may look impregnable but you would be surprised at the amount of earth a well-placed MBT round or a stream of APC projectiles may churn in a matter of fractions of a second.
 With cannon ammo - vs. the guided missles - the hull down serves mainly for consealment and for buying those precious fractions of a second rather than actual protection - unless you entrench in granite or prepared ferro-concrete position.

 As for a round penetrating between a turret and a hull - it is unlikely but with a lot of rounds it will happen sooner or later. Locking the turret and or damaging the turret-cannon joint is much likelier than direct penetration and as effective in disablimg the tank.

 miko

Offline john9001

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Wow!, Bradley's knocking out T-72s?
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2003, 11:15:53 AM »
the T72 damage model is porked , HTC can you fix it?

also perk the bradley