Author Topic: Ban Ki-67s from Early War  (Read 1165 times)

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2003, 06:36:33 AM »
Thanks for the chuckle. :D

Quote
Originally posted by brady
The Ki 67 is more easly killed by a Wildcat than a Boston is by a Zero.  In my opinion, over all, the Allies have the advantage in this case already. Since the Boston is more capable in a number of way's than the ki 67 is. it is not ideal but the best we can manage at present.


Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #16 on: April 11, 2003, 07:01:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz

The peggy would never catch a boston at 13k.

If it was a co-alt race from point a to point b, I'd probably buy this.

Quote


The peggy is not disruptive in anyway. In fact it is rarely used. The Boston isnt disruptive either. The b26 would be.


Any plane can be "disruptive" in the eyes of the beholder. It all boils down to how much influence the "beholder" has on the arena settings and how protective the "beholder" is with one side over the other. How disruptive is having IJ fleets spawn off of Allied bases?

Quote


The ju88 is slow, has weak defensive guns, is weak over all and has a problem with its fuel burn rate being to high.


Those "weak" defensive guns can take out a Wildcat in 2-3 squirts. Fuel rate burn? What, does it have to up from the rearmost base and attack the most rearward enemy base as it's only possible mission? And it's about as slow as the B-26 (has a higher top end, actually).

But yeah, the 26 does appear to have a pretty good bombload, after all. Totally impervious the the zeke you say? Mother tested? Kid approved? Maybe so .... but the Boston being able to defend itself from zekes with it's guns? What the heck ... you guys practice staying in it's itty bitty dorsal arc or what? And the 6 .303s (Axis version)/4 .303s (Allied version) being able to wreak havoc on the ground? *chuckle* And the Peggy ain't got guns or arcs and can't shoot down Wildcats? Hehe .... IJ ministry of propoganda?

Sounds more like the B-26 could hurt ya but the Boston can't so take the Boston argument. Whoops .... I'm not the right beholder.

(shakes head) :D
« Last Edit: April 11, 2003, 07:19:48 AM by Arlo »

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2003, 07:14:15 AM »
I use the ruder  and get kills aganst the Zero prety easy with the Boston, in fact I ushaly slow up to suck em in and plug them.

  The base spawning thing is a known bug which was to of been fixed priour to the set up, but the wrong map was uploaded some how by HTC.

 
 Were refering to the abality of the Boston to do effective dive and or shallow angle diving atack's somthing the Peggy is tottaly unsuited for. putting Bombs on target not nescessarly strafing.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2003, 07:25:09 AM »
Slow up? And the zeke doesn't swoop to belly stab ya? Tell me about the Boston's terrific gun arcs and guns. ;)

Quote
Originally posted by brady
I use the rudder  and get kills against the Zero pretty easy with the Boston, in fact I usually slow up to suck em in and plug them.

Offline Batz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3470
      • http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2003, 08:20:40 AM »
Fuel burn rate is porked so you have to carry more fuel then needed. The ju88 has a decent climb rate if you carry historical loads.

Ju88s rarely flew with max bombload and typically took 2 x 250 and 2 x500. However, taking 75 or 100 gas instead of 25 impacts climb especially above 10k. The ju88 fuel burn issue is that fuel burns at twice the rate it should (like the old mossie bug)

The 50 cals on the f4f can out range the 7.6 of the ju88. The ju88 has blinds spots (even dead 6) where an enemy plane can sit and peck away. If a ju88 kills you you might as well quit 'cause you suck.  Any attack from 3 or 9 is deadly to a ju88.

By "disruptive" I mean climbing to 7k heading the nearest enemy af diving to 3 k salving 1 or 2 bombs at a time on hangers, then extending away and then strafing the runway.

The guns of the b26 out range the guns on the a6m2 and as long as the b26 stays fast enough he can easily kill any fighter attacking. Then you have the issue with a6m2s guns and the toughness of the b26. Have you ever tried to kill a b26 in an a6m2?

Doing that above my highest kills in a b26 (with drones) was 17 before I rtb'd. Not in the ct though.

That is "disruptive" because the ct isnt the only game in town. Why would some stay in an arena to get vulched when he can easily go to the main. Things like this drive people away from the ct, not bring more folks in.

Just like taking a plane with a 70 mph speed advantage 3 sectors to club baby seals. Folks log off. The "Combat" theater is not  an arena like the main. The whole idea is "combat" between similiar planesets. When the ct first came to AH there was no base capture, no need to vulch, base rape or park cvs. It was about a2a fun. I was always vocal about fleet camping. In my set ups if there was a fleet I would  give the fleet Co 5 min to move it away from an enemy field or I would manually move it or sink it.

Parking the CV is a community issue, no one claims to like it but who ever the admiral is he always seems to sail right at an enemy field and park it. On all sides.  This in turn usually spawns the suicide cv guys. Except in a set up like this where the fleets are large and the attack planes limited.

A while back the cms took a poll and asked folks what they wanted in the ct. They wanted base capture and all these other things. Since then the CT hasnt grown any. It still pulls about 10% of the main. Some say that going more like the main will bring more folks in. Well that hasnt worked yet.

The CMs can lock out control of the fleets to prevent this but then you would whine about that. Other then thats its an issue with the map maker.

Test the a6m2 vrs the b26 if you doudt the results. You see its not like folks make reasons up not to do stuff. Believe or not the b26 was in a few of these set ups and guess what? It was flown as I described above. Its "disruptive" when it drives folks out of the arena.

No one can catch the boston either but the boston isnt well suited for the attack/vulch roll. You are a n00b to the ct and you seem to think you "know it all" but some us have flown here since the very 1st hour.

The only thing a b26 has over the boston is its vulch capability. The boston simply needs to begin a shallow dive at the site of an a6m2 (high or lo). Then use the rudder from the gun position to fend off the zeke if hes able to close.

I dont know what guns you think the a6m2 has but it has type 99 mkI (basically mgff) it has 60 rnds per (60 round drums). They fire about the same time so you get basically 60 triggger pulls to down a plane. Guess how many sec of continous fire? You just make statement and have no idea really about what goes on.

But like the b26 go test the a6m2 vrs the boston for yourself. The a6m2 aint gonna get you any snapshot kills or "up the belly stabs". Give it a try.

Both the boston and the Ki67 are lo impact planes in the ct. They are there for folks who wanna fly a bomber sortie or 2. Thats all.

You are just trying to find another reason to whine about "how unfair the mean Axis CMs are". I know when I was a ct cm if any plane I added or setting I placed caused folks to log off I changed it in a sec.

I did an "8th airforce" set up using the Big Week map and not a day went by that I didnt change or tweak something to get the desired gameplay.

Some folks whined but over all I got mostly positive feed back.

You seem to think that if you have an issue with something then it ought to get addressed. Well to bad. The ki67 hasnt had any greater impact on the ct then any other plane and the allies are no better or worse for having the boston.

You do know that the sbd5 and tbm3 shouldnt be there either right? The are both later models that carry more ord and have better guns then what should be there. You also know that both the Val and the Kate are '37 models that were obsolete during this same time period, right?

Both sides are missing AC (a6m3 for the axis and the p39/p400 for the allies). Both sides are missing land based bombers (Betty and the B25). Both sides have subs to fill gaps in the gameplay.

The a6m2 F4F match up is a fine one. Thats the focus of this set up.

I dont get what your whining about. Do you even fly bombers?

If it were up to me I would have  no multi eng bombers in the set up. But some folks like to fly umm.

I guess you can keep whining but it didnt get you your beloved F4U-1 vrs the a6m2 match up and it wont get you a b26 either.

Al;l that time you wasted whing to Brady could have been spent trying to get Sabre to throw you a bone, now you get another late war Ostfront set up.......I didnt see any F4U on his plane list.

:p

Offline Zanth

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
      • http://www.a-26legacy.org/photo.htm
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2003, 10:37:25 AM »
I have by no means done a scientific test. Speaking only for the game Aces high, with which history may or may not have parallel, if I see A ki-67 (which is rarely) and a Ju-88 at the same time I will always attack the Ki-67. Mind you, I most often fly planes that have no cannons, but the JU-88 is a lot harder to shoot down than the Ki-67 and the Ju-88 has a lower gun position.

For example, in the last CAP event there were JU-88's vs. P-47 D11's. It was not as easy to bring those JU-88's down as you might think. (I dread Guadalcanal and being tasked with attacking JU-88's with 4 x 50 caliber)

Substitution of aircraft is a real tricky business and should be avoided.

Offline Nifty

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4400
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2003, 12:35:48 PM »
Batz is right ONLY if the Boston dives.  Otherwise, they offer no danger to the A6M2.

of course, if the Boston just keeps going straight and fast, the A6M2 offers no real danger to the Boston either...
proud member of the 332nd Flying Mongrels, noses in the wind since 1997.

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2003, 12:51:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz

The CMs can lock out control of the fleets to prevent this but then you would whine about that.


Actually, I once inquired about and requested it. But you like filling in gaps with whatever suits yer fancy. ;)

Quote


 You are a n00b to the ct and you seem to think you "know it all" but some us have flown here since the very 1st hour.
[/b]


And ... as everyone knows ... AH's CT invented the online WWII air sim historic setting arena. ;)

Quote

You are just trying to find another reason to whine about "how unfair the mean Axis CMs are". I know when I was a ct cm if any plane I added or setting I placed caused folks to log off I changed it in a sec.[/b]


Well, I'll just hafta take yer word for that. I'm sure it's at least 50% accurate in any case.

Quote

You seem to think that if you have an issue with something then it ought to get addressed. Well to(o) bad.
[/b]


Well, yeah. That's how it usually works. And it does get addressed ... usually with all sorts of excuses and reasons to coddle the axis side and pizz on the allied side. If you can't see the pattern, others can. ;)

Quote

You do know that the sbd5 and tbm3 shouldnt be there either right? The are both later models that carry more ord and have better guns then what should be there. You also know that both the Val and the Kate are '37 models that were obsolete during this same time period, right? [/b]


You do know there aren't any `37 model USN aircraft in the game for me to request to replace them, right? You do know you're not the only guys in the world capable of coming up with planesets by suitable substitution, right? :D

Quote

Both sides are missing AC (a6m3 for the axis and the p39/p400 for the allies). Both sides are missing land based bombers (Betty and the B25). Both sides have subs to fill gaps in the gameplay.

[/b]


Well hot damn. But I tell ya what, I'm not overly eager to add anything at all to the allied planeset but I'd like to see some more IJ selections. You knew that, right? C'mon now. ;)

Quote

The a6m2 F4F match up is a fine one. Thats the focus of this set up.
[/b]


Uncontested. Why even bring that up?

Quote

I dont get what your whining about. Do you even fly bombers?
[/b]


Sure ... occasionally. But that has little to do with arguing against the "coddle one side and the others can just leave" mentality you've so boldly stated here so far. :p

Quote

If it were up to me I would have  no multi eng bombers in the set up. But some folks like to fly umm.
[/b]


Well then I guess it's a good thing it's not really up to you after all, then, ain't it? Or ain't it? ;)

Quote

I guess you can keep whining but it didnt get you your beloved F4U-1 vrs the a6m2 match up and it wont get you a b26 either.
[/b]


Once again, Woe-tan .... the F4U-A6M2 matchup desire is a product of your delusional prosecutional complex. The B-26 was brought up as an option and fiercely cried about by you. Personally, I just like seeing how far you'll go with excuses.

Quote

Al;l that time you wasted whing to Brady could have been spent trying to get Sabre to throw you a bone, now you get another late war Ostfront set up.......I didnt see any F4U on his plane list.
[/b]


Yeah .... I'm sure it woulda shot to the top of the priority list. Bwahahahaha :D

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2003, 02:42:21 PM »
The A6M versus Zeke matchup isn't the only viable "Early-war pacific" matchup which is fair.   The P-40E versus Ki-61 matchup is also pretty fair.    While the A6M--F4F matchup probably gives a slight edge to the Allied side, the Ki--P-40E match probably gives a slight edge to the Japanese side.  In both cases, the side with the "worse" plane is still perfectly capable of holding its own.  I'll happily fight Ki's with a P-40E--it's a great match.

The D3A Val is definately a POS plane that is basically obsolete and useless.  However, perhaps HTC was intelligent to add it rather than its replacement--the D4A Judy (which saw service in limited capacity as early as the Battle of Midway).   Since the Judy could do 360 MPH, I must assume that it would never be used because it'd be "too fast".

The G4M would not be a good early-war bomber for the Japanese.  It is a vulnerable, poorly-defended piece of crap.  The Ki-49 "Helen" would be a far better plane....while it missed the very earliest portion of the conflict, it entered service before the end of 1942 so it still saw action for most the war.  For a time it was the Japanese Army's most numerous bomber.

The Ju-88 could be a decent stand-in for the Ki-49, although it carries a greater bombload than the "Helen" did.


As for my recommended B5N versus TBM match....no, I wouldn't consider it totally equal either.  However, it is probably MORE equal than what we currently have--both sides would be reduced to having slow, poorly-defended planes as their main bomb-carrier.  Remember that the Ki-61 can carry 2 bombs, while the P-40E can only carry 1, so in that fighter match would also help address the disparity in bombing ability.

ANOTHER possible bomber recommendation is to use the A-20G versus the Ki-67.  Remember the A-20G cannot use the formation...so you'd have the 4000 lbs of bombs the A-20G carries, versus the 5000 lbs or so that a formation of Ki-67's carries.  The A-20 has the advantage of pilot-operated guns, while the Ki-67 has good defenside firepower and speed at altitude (plus a level bombsight).

There are a LOT of options the CT staff could use.   Rather than sit around and whine "it can't be done", just DO it.  AH isn't GOING to have any new planes added anytime soon, so we're stuck with what we have.



Those matches, while not perfect, would probably provide the closest level of parity possible with the current plane set.

NOTE:  

For those of you unfamiliar with the Ki-49 "Helen", it carried a 1000 KG bomb load (compared to the 800 KG carried by the Peggy), had a similar defensive layout as the Ki-67 (a single tailgun instead of a pair is only difference), and it had distinctly better armor protection than other Japanese bombers available at the time.  It was not as fast as the Peggy, being about 30 MPH slower at most altitudes (it was still faster than the B-25/B-26 at operational altitude).  The Helen first saw use in late 1942 and was widely used by the IJA.



J_A_B

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9418
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2003, 02:54:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by J_A_B
While the A6M--F4F matchup probably gives a slight edge to the Allied side

J_A_B....I can't believe you said this.

- oldman

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2003, 03:33:16 PM »
A6M2 vs F4F4 is a huge advantage to the Japanese side.  

A6M2 vs F4U1 is a huge advantage to the Allied side.  

Never flown P-40E vs Ki-61, I'd guess the Ki-61 is probably a little better.  

By the way, bombers suck.

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2003, 05:34:19 PM »
Did you get my E mal Urchin?

Offline Frogm4n

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2371
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2003, 05:36:06 PM »
No way should the ki67 be in any early war scenerio, stop makeing excuse's brady and remove it.

Offline Batz

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3470
      • http://bellsouthpwp.net/w/o/wotans/4JG53/
Ban Ki-67s from Early War
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2003, 07:05:46 PM »
The ki61 we have in ah is a 1944 model and its rapid fire lethal cannons would easily give the advantage to the ki61.

The ki 61 f6f can be a very fun matchup.

Frogman this aint a scenario......

The problem adding the a20g is that it wont be flown as a bomber and it has great potential to upset the main balance between the fighters. It can fight decently and the like the other bombers the a6m2 would hard time bringing it down.

If any of you remember the BoB set up where the tbm was enabled for the allies you ended up seeing more of them then either the hurri or spit. It was tougher , better armed with the 50s. So in our bob set up its was 109s vrs tbms. You would get the same thing where the top allied "fighter" would be the a20.

Ground attack, bombing and base capture have always been a side show to a2a combat in the ct. The fact is neither the Boston nor the Ki67 have any real impact on gameplay.