Question about typhie zoom climb and E retention

[Spatula]

I know not many fly the typhie, but perhaps those that do can help me out a bit here.

I was mucking around in the TA with this other kiwi pilot 'goffy' doing a bit of duelin/ FFA etc. Anyway, the last fight we did was me in 109 g10 (1*30) and he in typhoon. We start a good distance apart and head for each other, cold merge etc etc. just before the merge i asked him what speed he was doing he said about 380 and i was about 410. We passed on the merge, i immediately start an gentle pull up into the vert and zoom as high as the G10 could while watching him out the back. His move was a 180 degree flat turn then a zoom climb up after me. *great* i thought, one easy rope-a-dope. I was peaking out at the top of my zoom so i hammerhead over only to find him still zooming up at a hell of a rate and promptly shot me to toejam (GK) w/ 4*20mm and carried on up and passed me as i started spiralling down.

Now, this aint a whine cause i got killed (it was in the TA).
I want to hear from Typhie pilots who can speak from experience with regards to zooming ability of the Typhie.

I was absolutly stunned to see a typhie turn 180 degrees and then out zoom climb a 109 G10 that was doing over 400 MPH on the merge and zoomed straight up. This aint right in my book.

Anyone have an opinion? Historical opinions? AH experiences?

Im gunna do some testing offline myself.

Thnx,


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Overlord Spatula

if you adhere to all the rules you miss out on all the fun
   

=357th Pony Express=

[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-13-2000).]

[wells]

A plane doing 400 mph can zoom at least 5300 ft.  What's guns range?  500 yrds?  1000 yrds?  Well, if you wanna stay outta guns range, you need to be much faster and zoom anywhere from 1500 to 3000 ft higher.  

This means that the 'other' plane has to be slow enough to not zoom more than 2300-3800 ft.  It works out that the plane needs to be slower than 260-340 mph.  In other words, at 340 mph, the Typhoon would have zoomed to within 500 yrds of you, and at 260 mph, he would have still been within 1000 yrds.  If he climbed *at all* during his turn, even at a shallow 5 degree pitch angle (his climb rate would have been around 3k/min), his e-state was probably not as low as you thought.  He was probably not 'losing' much energy, but keeping it rather constant, trading speed for altitude in a chandelle type maneuver.  This is where film can be 'extremely' useful, to really analyze what the other guy was actually doing, compared to what you thought he was doing.

[This message has been edited by wells (edited 09-13-2000).]

[Spatula]

Yer, i thought he may have done a climbing turn up to me. And no i didnt get it on film, was just mucking about, didnt see any reason to film it. It did look like a 180 flat turn to tho. hmm, i will ask him next time i see him.

Thanks for reply.

[214thCavalier]

Not sure of any actual hard data but the Tiffie/Tempest was known as an excellent Zoom climb aircraft which is a totally different thing to an excellent sustained climbing aircraft as in the 109, even so i would be surprised if he was able to do a hard turn then zoom and catch you.

[Fishu]

Does anyone know stall speeds for Typhoon?
Had to try it out after this in off-line and made few aerobatics, noticed that I could fly some 60-70mph low level with flaps down.
With full load I could just pull nose up to 120mph and not get any stall warnings, sounds strange... at least when compares to P-47 and other planes which are screaming for mercy if you even try to keep nose up at 120mph with full bomb load.

[Spatula]

 

Originally posted by 214thCavalier:
Not sure of any actual hard data but the Tiffie/Tempest was known as an excellent Zoom climb aircraft which is a totally different thing to an excellent sustained climbing aircraft as in the 109,

The 109 G10 is an excellent zoom climber espc when its going over 400.

[StSanta]

Spatula:

Had the same happen to me vs a Spit and an F4u.

Am I the only one who thinks that the Jerry fighters have gotten the short end of the stick on 1.04? G10 isn't really fearsome anymore, F4 is now decent, but suffers from Zeke syndrome in terms of speed. A5 is nice though, and A8 is still too heavy to even think about turning, especially now that the enemy turns so much better.

I fly the A8 and A5 now. Lately more A5 than A8, simply because the A8 ain't so much fun anymore.

Those 180 degree turns followed by outzooming you really irritate the hell out of me. It's happened more than a few times, and I've been fast every time.

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[humble]

I've flown the tiffie alot since 1.04 came out. It's an outstanding E fighter now. The real key is managing your G-load on the rev...the nature of turn, flat, or low/hi yoyo is less important than the G load. Often I'll go into a low yoyo type rev if I'm neg E...the tiffie picks up E quickly and as long as you keep G load at 2.5 or less it'll explode upward on the rev...often you need to relax alot on stick pressure...once you cross that G threshold the tiffie loses E fast. Your low G zoom would play to this, If I'm fighting a tiffie I try and force climbing Hi G turn to the vert If he keeps G's low I'll ease of to best climb and creep up on him...If he follows I'll hang prop...long as initial E states are near equal nikki spit yak 109 pony will all gain E here in 3+ G climbing turns (IMO)

[Minotaur]

StSanta;

Chin up bud, you are not the only one.  The 104 FM for me was really a drastic change.  I had  became very accustomed to 103 and frustration seems to set in a little more often these days.  

I consider it almost a whole new game and so kind of exciting, as I must learn new tactics.

Good Luck!    

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"Who's next?"
Naso

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 09-15-2000).]

[gatt]

StSanta,
maybe this one can help you. Yesterday I was travelling (with my trusty 205) at 400mph TAS at 23,000ft with my wingman NASO. We spotted a Pony closing on NASO. Well, I did a 180deg turn into the bogey. When I ended the maneuver I watched (as always) my speed ... ouch! I was 360mph+ ...

[wells]

I think blackouts are not allowing planes to pull full angle of attack at high speeds, so you can't bleed as much speed as you would if you had a higher G-limit on the blackouts.

[Thor]

This data of original post must be in error , I've use the tiffy in 1.03 and 1.04.1 ALOT and have yet to ever be able to to that. If you hammer over me within 1-1.2K you're dead meat if I have at least 1/3 ammo load on and can fire while near 90ias controls aim. Even in 1.04 the tiff. still doesn't accel nearly as well compared to a g10 , if I find a g10 within 2k of me equal e state being slow i start to worry alot, because he can close that distance very fast with just his acceleration compared to mine. The type of turn you do in a tiff. at CERTAIN speeds does matter alot due to the not so great acceleration of that tub ,thus the low G turn holding most of your E will extend you out furthur. The only great advantage the tiff. really has is the 4xcannon ..they hurt alot with few hits , second adv. would be top end speed (but slow to get there).  The biggest problem with hammering in a 109 I've found is gettin the ac to keel over quickly without doing the float thing at apex , you probably just "floated" too long.

[Spatula]

My hammerhead was *less* than perfect as i dont normally fly 109s (P51 Hammers alot easier IMO). So yer, i could have balls'd it up completely (as usual). Also, 1 hit from those 20mm even if a random hit spells death if it hits the wing root (which is what happend) so he could have been all out of juice with me on the decent ready to blast, while he was stallin and putting out a final desperate blast. He reckoned he still had speed up his sleave when he scored on me and his controls weren't 'mushy'.
I've been a bit busy recently so no chance to try the tiffie out myself, but i will soon.
as for what Gatt said about the 205 being some 360 MPH after a 180 degree turn, IMO i think thats BS (in the FM).

Thanks for yur replies.

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Overlord Spatula

if you adhere to all the rules you miss out on all the fun
 

=357th Pony Express=

[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 09-17-2000).]