Military history

[capt. apathy]

a quick disclamer- I just got this in an e-mail and haven't checked the facts.  it could be pure bs for all I know but I thought it was funny.
 
 
 
  Some little known American military history.
 
  The U.S.S.  Constitution (Old Ironsides) as a combat vessel carried
  48,600 gallons of fresh water for her crew of 475 officers and men.
  This was sufficient to last six months of sustained operations at sea.
 She carried no evaporators  (fresh water distillers).
 
  However, let it be noted that, according to her log, "On July 27, 1798,
 the U.S.S. Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of
  475 officers and men, 48,600 gallons of fresh water, 7,400 cannon shot,
 11,600 pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum." Her mission:
 "To destroy and harass English shipping."
 
 Making Jamaica on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and
  68,300 gallons of rum.
 
  Then she headed for the Azores, arriving there 12 November.  She
  provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese
 wine.
 
  On 18 November, she set sail for England.  In the ensuing days she
  defeated five British men-of-war and captured and scuttled 12 English
 merchantmen, salvaging only the rum aboard each.
 
  By 26 January, her powder and shot were exhausted.  Nevertheless,
 although unarmed, she made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland.
 Her landing party captured a whisky distillery and transferred 40,000
 gallons of single malt Scotch aboard by dawn. Then she headed home.
 
  The U.S.S.  Constitution arrived in Boston on 20 February 1799, with no
 cannon shot, no food, no powder, no rum, no wine, no whisky and 38,600
  gallons of stagnant water.
 
  GO NAVY!

[Dowding]

What were those 5 British vessels? They can't have been ships of the line, the Constitution was a much smaller ship going on crew size. Nearly half the size. Armed Brigs? Couple of frigates?

[Sandman]

Stagnant water or possibly piss?

[john9001]

it says "man of war" not "ship of the line" , there is a difference dowd, don't be so damm defensive.
the Constitution was a super frigate, it could out gun a frigate and out run a ship of the line.

in them days water was not always safe to drink, more so after being in a wood barrel after weeks at sea, thats why sailors and landsmen drank rum mixed with water (grog) or wine, beer.

the story is the pilgrims were headed to virginia but ran out of beer, so they landed in new england to to brew some more and then just stayed there.

[Dune]

Hmm...while the "Old Ironsides" won many battles, I belive the date used above is wrong.  She didn't have her shakedown cruise until 1798. USS Constitution Timeline

I believe the action refered to was actually December 29, 1812 when she captured the British frigate Java and five smaller vessels.



Dowding, much has been written about the US v. Royal Navy battles during the War of 1812.  The US frigates were usually bigger, carried more guns and carried heavier guns (38 to 44 guns).  Of all the US Frigates, only one I believe lost a sea battle to a RN frigate, the USS Chesepeake.

A brief history from: http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/constitution/iron-hist.html

USS Constitution was one of six frigates authorized for construction by an act of Congress in 1794. Joshua Humphreys designed them to be the Navy’s capital ships. Larger and more heavily armed than the standard run of frigate, Constitution and her sisters were formidable opponents even for some ships of the line.

Built in Boston of resilient live oak, Constitution’s planks were up to seven inches thick. Paul Revere forged the copper spikes and bolts that held the planks in place and the copper sheathing that protected the hull. Thus armed, she first put to sea in July 1798 and saw her first service patrolling the southeast coast of the United States during the Quasi-War with France.

In 1803 she was designated flagship for the Mediterranean squadron under Captain Edward Preble and went to serve against the Barbary States of North Africa, which were demanding tribute from the United States in exchange for allowing American merchant vessels access to Mediterranean ports.

Preble began an aggressive campaign against Tripoli, blockading ports and bombarding fortifications. Finally Tripoli, Tunisia and Algeria agreed to a peace treaty.

Constitution patrolled the North African coast for two years after the war ended, to enforce the terms of the treaty.

She returned to Boston in 1807 for two years of refitting. The ship was recommissioned as flagship of the North Atlantic Squadron in 1809 under Commodore John Rodgers.

By early 1812, relations with Great Britain had deteriorated and the Navy began preparing for war, which was declared June 20. Captain Isaac Hull, who had been appointed Constitution’s commanding officer in 1810, put to sea July 12, without orders, to prevent being blockaded in port. His intention was to join the five ships of Rodgers’ squadron.

Constitution sighted five ships off Egg Harbor, N.J., July 17. By the following morning the lookouts had determined they were a British squadron that had sighted Constitution and were giving chase. Finding themselves becalmed, Hull and his seasoned crew put boats over the side to tow their ship out of range. By using kedge anchors to draw the ship forward, and wetting the sails down to take advantage of every breath of wind, Hull slowly made headway against the pursuing British. After two days and nights of toil in the relentless July heat, Constitution finally eluded her pursuers.

But one month later, she met with one of them again — the frigate Guerriere. The British ship fired the first shot of the legendary battle; 20 minutes later, Guerriere was a dismasted hulk, so badly damaged that she was not worth towing to port. Hull had used his heavier broadsides and his ship’s superior sailing ability, while the British, to their astonishment, saw that their shot seemed to rebound harmlessly off Constitution’s hull — giving her the nickname 'Old Ironsides'.

Under the command of William Bainbridge, 'Old Ironsides', met Java, another British frigate, in December. Their three-hour engagement left Java unfit for repair, so she was burned. Constitution’s victories gave the American people a tremendous boost to morale, and raised the United States to the rank of a world-class naval power.

Despite having to spend many months in port, either under repair or because of blockades, Constitution managed eight more captures, including a British frigate and sloop sailing in company which she fought simultaneously, before peace was declared in 1815. After six years of extensive repairs, she returned to duty as flagship of the Mediterranean Squadron. She sailed back to Boston in 1828.

An examination in 1830 found her unfit for sea, but the American public expressed great indignation at the recommendation that she be scrapped, especially after publication of Oliver Wendell Holmes’ poem 'Old Ironsides'. Congress passed an appropriation for reconstruction and in 1835 she was placed back in commission. She served as flagship in the Mediterranean and the South Pacific and made a 30-month voyage around the world beginning in March 1844.

In the 1850s she patrolled the African coast in search of slavers, and during the Civil War served as a training ship for midshipmen.

After another period of rebuilding in 1871, she transported goods for the Paris Exposition of 1877 and served once more as a training ship. Decommissioned in 1882, she was used as a receiving ship at Portsmouth, N.H. She returned to Boston to celebrate her centennial in 1897.

In 1905, public sentiment saved her once more from scrapping; in 1925 she was restored, through the donations of school children and patriotic groups. Recommissioned in 1931, she set out under tow for a tour of 90 port cities along the Atlantic, Gulf and Pacific coasts of the United States.

More than 4,600,000 people visited her during the three-year journey. Having secured her position as an American icon, she returned to her home port of Boston. In 1941, she was placed in permanent commission, and an act of Congress in 1954 made the Secretary of the Navy responsible for her upkeep.

Now the oldest U.S. warship still in commission, Constitution remains a powerful reminder of the nation’s earliest steps into dominance of the sea.

[Dune]

PS, I was wrong, the Essex, after a long anti-shipping cruise was cornered by two Royal Navy ships and the President, after defeating one RN frigate, was captured by a RN squadron.  The total list is:

1. Constitution-Guerriere (19 August 1812)
2. United States-Macedonian (28 October IS12)
3. Constitution-Java (29 December 1812)
4. Chesapeake-Shannon (1 June 1813)
5. Essex-Phoebe and Cherub (28 March 1814)
6. Constitution-Cyane and Levant (20 February 1815)

This adds to the two battles won by US frigates during the Quasi-War of 1798-1801:

1. Constellation-L'Insurgente (9 February 1799)
2. Constellation-La Vengeance (1-2 February 1800)

[Airhead]

Well, I don't know whose ships were better back then, but I'll bet we had the prettiest cabin boys.

[Hangtime]

Little known facts..

the Brits kicked our bellybutton in the war of 1812... we won the first three frigate 'duels'.. then the brits soundly kicked our arses on the last three frigate duels, overwhelming our 'super frigates' with superior tactics, gunnery and discipline. By the time the war was over, the Brits had invaded and burned washington, had slapped a tight blocade on the east coast and were quite capable of doing whatever the hell they wanted on OUR coasts, while we had NO frigates left at sea and were not even a tiny threat to their empire.

oh, how we love our glorious propoganda..

[Dune]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Little known facts..

the Brits kicked our bellybutton in the war of 1812... we won the first three frigate 'duels'.. then the brits soundly kicked our arses on the last three frigate duels, overwhelming our 'super frigates' with superior tactics, gunnery and discipline. By the time the war was over, the Brits had invaded and burned washington, had slapped a tight blocade on the east coast and were quite capable of doing whatever the hell they wanted on OUR coasts, while we had NO frigates left at sea and were not even a tiny threat to their empire.

oh, how we love our glorious propoganda..

Dunno Hang, I would have to disagree with that.  Look at the last 4 battles I listed.

Chesapeake-Shannon (1 June 1813)
The crew of the Chesapeake were very inexperienced.  The US skipper, Lambert (IIRC) voluntarily went out to face a frigate known in the RN for its gunnery.  The crew of the Chesapeake were mad they had not gotten back pay for prizes taken and would not go to their stations until Lambert gave them all IOU's.  By that time the Shannon had the superior position and quickly worked the Chesapeake over.

Essex-Phoebe and Cherub (28 March 1814)
The Essex was a light frigate, not the same size as the Constellation/Constitution, etc.  Her skipper was supposed to meet up with the Constitution for some raiding.  He mistook the Phoebe for the Connstitution and found himself seriously outgunnned, 54 to 32.

In January 1814 Essex sailed into neutral waters at Valparaiso, Chile, only to be trapped there for 6 weeks by the British frigates, Phoebe and Cherub. Porter determined to gain the open sea, but a heavy squall crippled Essex forcing her return to the harbor. The enemy, disregarding the neutrality of the harbor, proceeded to attack the disabled ship. The engagement which followed was one of the most remarkable in naval history. For 2 hours, Essex resisted with intrepidity the enemy's superior fighting power; however, the loss of 155 men forced the gallant frigate to surrender.

The one I did not mention was the President.  

At the end of 1814, she came under command of Captain Stephen Decatur. Although the Treaty of Ghent had been signed on December 24, the news had not yet arrived, and on January 14, 1815, Decatur tried to slip the blockade. President grounded on a sandbar several hours later, breaking her keel and straining her hull. The next day, HMS Endymion (50) gave chase until Decatur turned for a broadside action. President had the advantage until HMS Pomone and Tenedos arrived on the scene. Vastly outgunned and with fifty of his crew dead or wounded, Decatur struck. President was taken to Bermuda and seized as a war prize. Too damaged for further work, she was broken up at Portsmouth in 1817, but not before her lines were taken off and used for a new ship of the same name and reputation for speed.

http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/ships/html/sh_071800_usspresident.htm

It's worth noting, I believe, that the last major engagement of the war was won by the USN.

Constitution put back to Boston where the wounded Bainbridge was replaced by Captain Charles Stewart. After a brief cruise to the Caribbean in early 1814, she put back to Boston where she remained until December 1814 when she again slipped the British blockade. On February 20, 1815—a week after the war formally ended—she sailed into action against HMS Cyane (22) and Levant (20) off Madeira. She forced both ships to strike and both ships were taken as prizes, though Levant was recaptured by a British squadron on March 11. Constitution arrived at New York on May 15, the most celebrated ship in the U.S. Navy.
http://college.hmco.com/history/readerscomp/ships/html/sh_022600_ussconstitut.htm

[Hangtime]

Hmmm... notable here is Shannon vs Chesepeke... yer data is seriously in error I believe.  From memory:

Shannon was at the end of her blockade tour.. trailing heavy weed and hull growth she was less than nimble. Chesapekes Skipper was a guy named Lawrence.. very succesful skipper, although new to Chesapeke. Shannon was skippered by a bloke name Broke as I recall.. and they had been inviting Chesepeke out for a fair fight for many weeks.

Lawrence finally accepted.. and he sailed out to do battle in train with a whole bunch of sightseeing boats, come out to see the big and powerful american frigate whup up on the smaller and slower brit.

Shannon literally took the chesepeake apart... he outsailed Lawrence, out gunned him, and out smarted him. During the latter part of the action Lawrence was mortally wounded.. and as he was being taken below he uttered the famous line "don't give up the ship". Shortly afterwards, shannon came close aboard, did the 'away boarders' bit, and took chesepeke... towing the badly damaged american super frigate right out from under the noses of the dumbfounded yankees and so they took her off to halifax, where i believe she was fully repaired and brought into the Royal Navy.

Yes, we americans managed some pretty spectacular early victories with those Hull designed big frigates.. against 'b' team crews and skippers in third rate frigates already obsolete before they were detailed to the american blockade. To think those six american frigates and the upstart puny american navy were any real threat to the RN's 168 frigates, 53 Ships of the Line and several thousand brigs, barques and sloops of war is pure baloney.

For their part, the brits demonstrated they had the skill and determination to face down those oversized 'frigates' one on one, and frankly the british crews and officers by this time were literally frothing at the bit to get alongside one and 'give 'em a bit of bully beef'. We americans love so much the image of our grand lil navy spanking the nasty evil brits we often get lost among our own accomplishments and fail to recognize the Admirality was in fact staffing the american station with hand me-downs, and once their 'a' team was no longer needed to combat bonaparte's navy, and the 'b' team was put back on the beach at portsmouth, they were more than a match for us upstart americans, one on one.

but, a hundred years worth of propaganda is tuff to overcome.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Hangtime
Little known facts..

the Brits kicked our bellybutton in the war of 1812... we won the first three frigate 'duels'.. then the brits soundly kicked our arses on the last three frigate duels, overwhelming our 'super frigates' with superior tactics, gunnery and discipline. By the time the war was over, the Brits had invaded and burned washington, had slapped a tight blocade on the east coast and were quite capable of doing whatever the hell they wanted on OUR coasts, while we had NO frigates left at sea and were not even a tiny threat to their empire.

oh, how we love our glorious propoganda..

Of course, by 1865, the United States had the largest, most powerful and most experienced land army and navy on the planet.

Britain had a couple of iron hulled warships, large and fast. However, they could not survive a gun duel with monster ironclads the likes of the Roanoke, fitted with three twin gun (15 inch) turrets and armor able to keep out any shell from any gun mounted on any ship, even at point blank range.

Naturally, within two years of the end of the American Civil War, most of the huge ironclad fleet was decommisioned and even larger, more powerful warships had their construction ceased or were sold to other nations (France and Japan being but two).

Early in the war, the U.S. and Britain nearly came to blows over the Trent Affair (American warship San Jacinto stopped RMS Trent and took off Confederate diplomats). However, neither nation was anxious for war as the U.S. was focused on the Confederacy and Britain understood that Canada would quickly (being virtually undefendable) be lost, along with their Caribbean colonies being at extreme risk. Trans-Atlantic supply lines would greatly limit Royal Navy power projection, and the rapid growth of the U.S. Navy was impossible to match ship for ship (at the time, as many as 40 British merchant ships were under constuction in American ship yards, and all would have been seized by the U.S. Government). Britain ordered 8,000 troops to depart for Canada, Lincoln was prepared to send 30,000 north into Canada. The USN was ready to close the St. Lawrence river, effectively isolating Canada.

Ultimately, cooler heads prevailed and the U.S. returned the captured diplomats and apologized for the breach of international naval law. Britain, well aware that a war with the U.S. was a lose/lose proposition, distanced itself from the Confederacy using the excuse of slavery as the motivator. Over the next two years, trade with the U.S. vastly increased, while trade with the Confederacy diminished to a trickle, the U.S. naval blockade of the South becoming increasingly more effective every month.

My regards,

Widewing

[Naso]

LOL, surrender Hangtime, you have been outpropaganded

[Dowding]

John - I wasn't been defensive at all. I know man-o-war doesn't neccessarily mean ships of the line, but was seeking clarification on what vessels were involved.

Of course, by 1865, the United States had the largest, most powerful and most experienced land army and navy on the planet.

I'd dispute that. The Royal Navy's dominance was not challenged until the 20th century, definitely. As for the army, the British army was fighting various actions all over the world throughout the 19th century. It was also an expeditionary force, and if you count the auxililaries fighting as native regiments, in British fashion, it was absolutely massive. Remember that the British empire covered a quarter of the globe in 1865 and that needed defending. I'm pretty sure that while the US army was large in 1865, it did not rival the British Army in size, and was largely disbanded after the civil war.

In terms of professional armed forces, the US didn't compete until the early 20th century and certainly didn't complete its ascendency until well into WW2.

[Dowding]

BTW, anybody played Age of Sail 2? I downloaded it off Kazaa, after starting to read the Hornblower series of books (about a midshipman who eventually becomes an admiral in the Napoleonic RN).

It's incredible that they would fit 800 men on those ships of the line. If youve ever been on Nelson's HMS Victory, you'll know what I mean.

No wonder sailors back then were a bit... you know.