Level bombing in the v1.09 era (check side arms at the door)

[Wutz]

Whitout AI controled guns. There would be no need for 4 bombers in formation. 1 man can't jump from position too position in 4 planes. And there is not always 3 other players avlb for gunning. But is it not possible too make the AI "Shoot like an average human gunner"?????? or....?????

           

[Sundog]

I actually think it is great that HTC is trying to make the bombing part of AH more 'historical'. I agree that some bombers need to be able to fly single (Ju-88, NOE B-26 missions, etc.) I see it like this.

1) HTC is going to add the bomb dispersion as accurately as they can, as World War II Bombers didn't have the LGB accuracy we now have. However, adding this effect creates a problem for the medium to high altitude level bombers.

2) To insure that the level bombers can effectively carpet bomb in a manner similar to that used in World War II, they will now require a method to allow bombers to maintain the 'classical' box formation for both mutual defensive support and to improve the chances of success with the new dispersion added into the mix. Not to mention it will look really cool to see a field carpet bombed (Well, if I'm not sitting on the runway at the time anyway       -).

3. Having the ability to have the bombers in such a formation, I like the idea of having the pilot who 'creates' the buff flight being the pilot/bombadier for the entire mission. However, now I think he needs the ability to add 4 gunners, one for every bomber. Whichever bomber gets hit and can't continue with the formation, would break away, and the gunner on that bomber could now pilot it (As it is 'disconnected' from the flight) and he can decide whether to continue on towards the target, or attempt to RTB. The pilot of the flight, remains the pilot of the flight. If the lead bomber which he is in is the first hit and 'flight disconnected' he is just automatically 'moved' to the next 'good' bomber in the flight. This would continue until only one good bomber is remaining, in which case, it is exactly what we have now, except without the laser guided bomb effect.
If one of the 'flight disconnected' bombers is unmanned, I think it should just enter a downard spiral until someone downs it or it augers.

I would like those features, because having a gunner for every buff will definitely make it tougher on the attacking fighters (It wasn't meant to be easy       -). It will also allow for better SA on the buff formations part when attacked by mulitple bandits.

I know what I would like to see wouldn't be easy to implement, but I think it would greatly add to the immersiveness of AH. I can't wait to see how they implement it.      

P.S.- I would also see the 'Flight Leader/Pilot/Bombadier' selecting how many bombers he wants to roll while in the hanger (i.e. 1 or 4 - is there really a need for 2 or 3?) Or, I see all the bombers rolling with a single pilot in each and three of them 'joining up' on a lead bomber to implement this feature.

P.P.S.- Maybe, tied in with item 1 above, all HTC is adding is a formation command. Bombers will want to fly information for mutual support and for a greater chance of bombing success. The other bomber pilots wouldn't need to hop into the bombsite. They would just drop on the leader's cue (As many did during World War II). Perhaps HTC will give us a .box 'name' (Box formation and the name of the leader for buffs), .EchL 'name' (For echelon left on the name of leader, also a right side version) and a .fourl (For finger formation left on the leader). This would automatically gate the leaders throttle at 80% of max T for all planes to maintain formation. Just an idea. However, I think it would be relatively simple to code compared to all the other ideas. The echelon and finger four formation commands would be there for fighters.

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: Sundog ]

[zarkov]

Originally posted by humble:
A B17 is almost invulnerable to attack from a single pilot (assuming a decent gunner onboard). The thought of "quads" is frightening...it makes any kind of solo attack pure suicide.

Hmmm...I believe the LW usually attacked bomber formations as a unit rather than individually.  Also, there was a reason why they tried to separate a bomber from the rest of the herd before falling upon it like crazed vultures.  A lone bomber should be easy meat to a lone fighter.  A lone fighter attacking a bombers flying in close formation should get his head examined.

I don't see anything wrong with AI gunners as long as they are properly implemented.

[Rojo]

It’s all a matter of trade-offs, really.  A single fighter attacking four B-17’s in tight formation should be at considerable risk.  However, since the buffs can’t maneuver and still hold that tight formation, it should be easier for the attacker to exact a pound of flesh for that risk.  I’m of the mind that thinks AI gunners – with an option of adding human gunners to each plane in the flight – would be okay IF those gunners exhibit only average aptitude.  The comment made above about the LW attacking by sections is correct according to my sources.  Likewise, they didn’t attack the whole bomber stream, but concentrated on sections of it.  With buff formations forced to maneuver more sedately, the attacking fighter will have an easier time setting up the attack; however, the defensive firepower will make such a lone attacker’s pucker factor go up.

I sure hope they bring back bomb-crater speed bumps for 1.09.  Imagine how careful you’ld have to be then when taking off from a field that has just been carpet bombed by 30 or 40 Lancs with 1,000 lb’ers.  Yikes, watch your step there!

[humble]

Originally posted by zarkov:


A lone bomber should be easy meat to a lone fighter.  A lone fighter attacking a bombers flying in close formation should get his head examined.

My objection is to a single B-17 decimating fighters...I don't fly buffs much but will on occasion. My last sortie I had multiple kills including a tempest (think 4 total) and had no problem reaching target...now I have been hosed by a couple bomber busters to be fair...a single bomber shouldnt be able to explode an attacking fighter before he closes to 400 yds...a common occurance in AH.

[K West]

Rojo, you have all good points and questions. Well though out and clear.

 I hate to continue playing the devil advocate a bit but so far most of the discussion has been good and involves how mature people will use and play AH with these new features. A lot of it is about how to make bombing/strat/etc more realistic.   That's all very well and nice for the majority of folks here who are looking for that too. One problem is there needs to be some serious talk, or reassurances from HTC, about safe guards and the closing of loop holes. Because as is seen in the MA and the TA the slowest common denomination will find them.  

 So, since you (and many others) have great ideas for HTC to ponder when putting this together allow me to add in some points that need to be looked at to help reduce idiotic gameplay.

 Besides the issue I brought up, where AI outlasts the bailed or shot down "master" pilot and the one about ack stars, has anyone given though to how this may empower the ultimate online dweebs who "pork and auger?" The tards who are also known as suicidal bombers? I have. My recommendation is that HTC disable bomb release if the medium and heavy bombers are not within 20 degrees of being level. This would help prevent a B17/Lanc/B26 for instance from rolling over into a stall and easily dropping four times it's normal bomb load on a base, depot or CV. But it would not impede a pilot from using a plane that was built to dive bomb, like the Ju-88, from doing what it naturally would and could do.

  Westy

[Rojo]

A good point, Westy.  Perhaps a better solution would be to limit the AI aircraft to reasonable angles of attack, bank and speed.

[BenDover]

Originally posted by Rojo:
I sure hope they bring back bomb-crater speed bumps for 1.09.  Imagine how careful you’ld have to be then when taking off from a field that has just been carpet bombed by 30 or 40 Lancs with 1,000 lb’ers.  Yikes, watch your step there!  

i remember those,back in 1.03
btw,i started playing AH in 1.03,when i got it off a cover disk, but didn't start playing online untill 1.05

[Wutz]

This could be a revolution in ww2 online flight sims. Massive bomber formation, has never been seen before. (ok I know the Bish bomber squad "Dickweed, or something, hmmm Dick+weed.... god, I hope I have mistaken their name   ) I at least trying too make a good realistic bomber formation in AH, and a big (S) for that. But this is something new. 4 player would acctually be able to fly 16xB-17 in a close combat box. (how cool is that)... This would mean, figthers need too cooperate too take down a bomber formation. And it would make the ww2 frase :The bomber would everytime fight its way too the target and they would return, the only question I had was "how many is left" -Bomber Harris Cmd Britans Bomber Force- And it would open a whole new arena for the Scenario makers (sweinfurt raid, hamburg Raid,, Air War over Germany 1942-44)

And How about a City with every AF, that controled production. Lets say an AF have the ability too scramble 50 AC. If the city (offcourse it has to be a large city) is 50% destroyed, this means that the factory, and workers can only make 25 AC, and 25 AC is avlb in that field. Ok ok this is over ambitious, but it is my mad idea. I loved the strategy element in Lucasgames "Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe" an old time flight sim.    Ok ok I have seen too much ww2 aviation movies. And my favoritt is a episode of a series called "The World at War" produced by the BBC (i think) in 1973. Episode 13 (or 11) is called "Wirbelwind" and it is abt bombing of germany 1941-44. And there it is lots of cool footage. And Intervues with Adolf Galland and Gunter Rall. And Gunter Rall said " When we attacked a bomber formation, I always told the new pilots too close their eyes, for att abt 1000 meters the American gunners would open fire with their tracer amunition, and they would scare the new pilots, so I always told them too close their eyes"

[K West]

" 4 player would acctually be able to fly 16xB-17 in a close combat box."

!!  Aha!

And yet... one more item to think about   (you guys are gonna hate me, if not already)

Imagine....  What if the four players fly on right top of each other? They fly so close they've literally mixed the four seperate bomber groups together to make one hell of an impregnable formation with themselves and the AI?     Imagine ..... One huge DickWeeb Bomber "ball".   It would have four times the firepower coming from firing points in a formation that physically never would have occured as there would have been collisions between planes. Now you can have four tail gunners conentrated within feet of each other firing eight fifties at you. Add in the turret guns too and you can see a slight problem.
 
 I do have to say this is a pretty darn good idea on HTC's part but they also have thier work cut out for themselves to remove the obvious dweeb factors.

 Westy

[popeye]

Maybe bomber "groups" could be like the task forces.  The "commander" lays out waypoints, and altitudes, and clicks "fly".  The group takes off and follows the waypoints.  Meanwhile, the commander can man guns or the bombardier postion, but NOT the pilot position.  He can plot new waypoints, but they will be restricted to reasonable course and altitude changes by the waypoint plotter.  As the bombardier, the commander will have direct control of the group on the bomb run, but will be limited to level turns.  All bombers drop when the lead drops.  Other players can join the group as gunners (just like the task force).

This would provide mass bombing that would adhere to "historic" maneuvers, flight patterns, and altitudes (as controlled by the waypoint plotter).  It would only apply to the 1.09 multi-plane level bomber groups, single bombers would function as they do now.

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: popeye ]

[Wutz]

Westy,,, We dont hate U    It is why this board is here. We must give HT and the staff, every posible way this could be exploited by "DWEEBS" and "people who will shoot ya in the back like a dirty Mexican" Clint Eastwood. But I think this idea is great news.     (att least for the 10% who like too fly Bombers) And we need too raise the number of bombers in AH. I WANT CARPET BOMBING. I remember the First time I tried AH. I got shoot down in a figther all the time. So I tried the bomber. Me, my brother and Looser111 and Cpt.Andy flew bombers in a sort of formation. It was back in January , and it was fun. But it never became the combat Box I dreamt abt. Btw my callsign then was Olav-V, and I never flew more than my 2 free weeks. Untill now  

[eskimo2]

Bomb accuraccy should mostly be determined by bomber altitude/bomb-air-time.

At 2k a single bomber should still be able to nail a single hanger with a single bomb.
At 30k, no way.
In-between alts, somewhere in-between, of course.

A vertical dive component should add accuraccy to a bomb.  That is, a bomb released from a vertically diving 450 MPH fighter at 6K should be less influenced by dispersion than a bomb released from a level bomber at 6K.  Dispersion should be a factor of bomb flight time over its alt.

Either way, as long as buffs can still ruin Lazs day, I'll be happy.

eskimo

[CRASH]

I think it's a great idea.  I'd love to see large formations of bombers roaming the skies, just as long as the lgb's and overmodeled guns are addressed.  

CRASH

[Montezuma]

I am not sure why we need the AI bomber wing.  It seems like it could create more problems than it solves.