So what would it take to kill a tank in real life?

[HFMudd]

The compression wave from a 1000lb bomb will pop the eardrums of someone 200 metres away

Citation?

[edit]

I'd guess more like 40 metres.

Rather than being a complete bellybutton on this I tried to do some research.  The best I could find was the tidbit that it takes 3.5psi to damage an eardrum and this document that details how far one needs to be away from houses and such when detonating stacks of mines.  Using the formula from there of R=130x(NEC)^1/3 where NEC is the TNT kg equivalent and (from another thread here that said) a US 1000lbs bomb having 530lbs of explosive I get:

R=130x(530/2.2)^1/3=270 meters is the safe distance at which the explosion won't break any windows.  

Further, at the bottom of the document (Annex C) is a table which details how far away one can be from the blast center before hearing damage occurs.  From this chart, hearing damage from a US 1000lbs bomb, would occur at somewhere between 33 and 56 metres distance.  

Bottomline: It flat ain't gonna hurt a tiger at a 50 yards.

[F4UDOA]

I honestly think that at some point we loose track of actual vrs simulated explosions. By that I mean just because it shouldn't doesn't mean it won't.

Bt this I mean (and I am no expert on explosives or armor).

1. Israel has lost a couple of Merkava 3 tanks to 100KG explosives set on the side of the road that have blown the turret clean off. I know the explosives are far more advanced now than WW2 but the Merakava 3 has modern Chabham armor and reactive panels. This type o explosive should not work but has on occassion.

2. At least a few M1A1's have been disabled by RPG's in the current conflict. In any simulation this should not happen but it does.

3. Sherman tanks were able to defeat far superior armor and firepower by numbers and tactics. But based on penatration tables I have seen it should be almost impossible but yet it happened.

Here is my little theory on how a 1000lb bomb destroys a Tiger at 50 yards.

Pressure.

Once the bomb expodes a huge vaccum occurs around the tank. The pressure inside the tank remains constant. It may not be able to blow the tank apart but every hydrolic line and fuel line should rupture immediately causing secondary explosions and fires.

Just my opinion.

[Batz]

The blast wave from a bomb dropped into the ground is deflected up and away by the ground. The bomb will bury itself before it detonates. The circular shape of the crater is an indication of how the blast is deflected.

There are bombs specifically designed to create a massive "over" pressure wave that will kill humans. A 250 or 500lb general purpose bomb sure wont.

From screenshots we calculated that a 500ld bomb within about 5 panzer lengths away will kill it. But the tests werent to accurate.

Comparing this to shaped charges specifically designed for penetrating armor is not even close.

Even the vaunted "stuka" and "sturmovik" couldnt kill armor as accurately as we see in AH. Rationalizing why it happens is just silly.

[palef]

Originally posted by Urchin
So a 1,000 pound bomb hitting 200 yards away from a tank will kill the crew?  How?  

I don't understand how a shock wave would hurt someone that was inside an enclosed space, can you explain that?

The pressure differential between external pressure and internal pressure of the human body requires a certain amount of balance to stop that big ugly bag of water bursting.

Similarly the pressure of the tympanic membrane of the ear (the eardrum) needs to remain balanced for the ear to function correctly. A 1000lb bomb displaces a large amount of atmosphere when it goes off causing a negative external pressure differential to occur momentarily. The eardrum is very thin and very fragile and if the pressure inside your head exceeds the maximum potential stress your eardrum can sustain it tears or in extreme cases explodes. This can make you temporarily or permanently deaf. You can offset this by opening your mouth because stuff under pressure always takes the path of least resistance.

The damage that HFmudd is talking about is decibel level relating hearing loss. This is the temporary and sometimes permamnent pralysis of the little hairs in your ear that help funnel sound to your eardrum, and sometimes high noise levels can damage nerves that make parts of the ear work.

The concussion from the bomb blast can make objects accelerate suddenly. You can be wearing a helmet but still die if your head strikes an unyeilding surface and your brain "cones" - that is it is flung around inside your skull so hard it sinks into the part of the brain where your cortex resides. This compresses the brain itself, the cortex (your autonomous motor control) and the top of the spinal column. Other organs can also be torn free causing organ trauma  - heart, lungs, liver, spleen are all easily damaged by sudden accelerative differences in any direction.

I wish I could find the source, but I have read a study that says that if a man were stopped instantaneaously in his tracks at a brisk jog, he stands a good chance of dying from these types of injuries. I think the velocity quoted was 15-16km/h. Thankfully we don't stop instantaneously all that easily or often (if at all - even that US Air Force Colonel who survived 45Gs of negative acceleration did so over a period of time, albeit something like 1 second)

The interior of a WWII tank is NOT impervious to external pressure differences. It's not sealed in an atmospheric sense and the type of pressure differential I've talked about would affect the crew of that era's tanks.

palef

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Tony,

>Incidentally, the average miss distance of bomb-dropping Typhoons aiming at precision targets was more like 130 yards.

Thanks, that's good data! "Average" means that 50% of the bombs fell within the 130 yard radius?

I think I have seen Stuka numbers given as 30 m (from memory - don't quote me :-) That's much more accurate, but as we all know still not accurate enough for effective tank busting.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Yes, 50% fell within 130 yards. From memory, average length error was about 70 yards, average width 50 yards either side.

I also recall a 30m CEP for Stukas.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[Tony Williams]

The interior of a WWII tank is NOT impervious to external pressure differences. It's not sealed in an atmospheric sense and the type of pressure differential I've talked about would affect the crew of that era's tanks.
palef [/B]

It may not be impervious, but it provides considerably more protection than being out in the open, so the effect of blast would be very much reduced.

I have read a lot of accounts of the effects of air attack on tanks, but I can't recall any which mentioned a dead crew in an unharmed tank.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[palef]

Originally posted by Tony Williams
It may not be impervious, but it provides considerably more protection than being out in the open, so the effect of blast would be very much reduced.

I have read a lot of accounts of the effects of air attack on tanks, but I can't recall any which mentioned a dead crew in an unharmed tank.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

I'm not suggesting that either tank is unharmed or that the crew is fatally injured. A tank's effectiveness is dependent o the crew being at a functional level for steering, loading, aiming, and communicating. If one of these factors is reduced the tank's overall efficiency is reduced.

Jim Henderson wrote a book called Gunner Inglorious about his experiences in the Western Desert. He was an artillery trooper and was captured escaped and recaptured after wandering about the desert. I have had the honour of meeting this gentlemen twice and he discussed the effect of near misses by artillery shells, and the fact that the consequences of a near miss could be devastating , unlike the movies where one ducks and then stands up and moves on. Jim spoke about tanks stopping apparently unharmed but the crews in various states of disrepair, mental and physical after near misses.

He also discussed his hearing loss and the different types of deafness you could experience as a result of different events, and the physical discomfort that extreme heat, noise, and impacts can have on a person over time. Of course this is anecdotal and I wouldn't expect you to accept this as evidence or an absolute "truth". I am trying to communicate that it is impossible to model these effects in a computer game and the loss tank to a near miss could well accurately model the loss of capability of a tank crew.

palef


There are also accounts that have been quoted

[Batz]

palef no way would 1000lb bomb exploding 200yrds away create a blast wave sufficient to disable people. If that were the case 1/3 of population of ok city would dead or deaf.

At 600ft (200 yrds) the blast sufficiently dispates that theres no way the blast wave would hurt you. Hell look at down town Baghdad.

If all you need was a blast wave to disable troops then the Germans would have given up the Ost front from all the Soviet shelling. The Ami and Brits would have gave up massive bombs raids against cities  and just over flew the front dropping ord on troop concentrations.

[aircav]

From a quick Google search for 'Goodwood'....



The aerial bombardment was effective in many ways. It was the first time the heavy bombers had\been called on to play a tactical role. The German defenders were stunned. Captain Freimark von Rosen, then 19 years of age, recorded:

"My own tanks [12 Tigers of 503 Heavy Battalion] were combat ready, well placed, camouflaged and dispersed in the park of Manneville [3.5 miles east of Caen]…We were located in the very middle of this bombardment [which lasted for over two hours] which was like HELL and I am still astonished to have survived it… [a] tank 30 metres away received a direct hit which set it on fire instantly. [Another] tank was turned upside down by the air pressure, a Tiger at the weight of 58 tons…All tanks were completely covered with earth. The engines were full of sand. Fifty men of my company were dead, two soldiers committed suicide. Another soldier went insane. When we withdrew in the early afternoon to the Cagny area the entire battalion had only six to eight tanks left [out of 42]"

[edit] The above is very much the exception rather than the rule of course, but it does show that accurate bombing was capable of disabling tanks or rendering crews ineffective.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by aircav
The above is very much the exception rather than the rule of course, but it does show that accurate bombing was capable of disabling tanks or rendering crews ineffective.

No argument about that, the question was about the probability of a fighter-bomber, carrying presumably one or two bombs, being able to drop a bomb close enough to a tank to have the effects described. Particularly bearing in mind that fighter-bombers made very inaccurate bombers, and would only land a bomb close to a tank by rare and lucky chance.

I would be interested in seeing any data about the effects on tanks and their crews of bombs of various sizes detonating at various distances, if anyone can find any.

Incidentally, I recall reading that in one much-used picture of a Panzer on its side, usually quoted as the result of air attack, it was actually heaved off the road after being knocked out by artillery, because it was in the way...

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
forum

[Batz]

aircav I have read but those bombs didnt land 200m way they fell right on top of the tanks. many were destroyed by direct hits.

But Captain Freimark von Rosen wasnt disabled, deaf or killed by the blast wave. The question isnt whether direct hits or close proximity hits can kill tanks. They can. The question how close and how much damage.

Theres no questions bombs kill things. Palef claims a 1000lb bomb exploding 200m away would

You don't need to hit the tank to kill it. The compression wave from a 1000lb bomb will pop the eardrums of someone 200 metres away if the don't have their mouth open when the blast reaches them.

At the very least the panzer crew are now deaf, at worst their soft organs are jelly.

If the crew is dead the tank is also effectively dead.

Thats just nonsense.............

[ramzey]

picture i was talking about, now i must finde post with discusion about it. Possibly not to recover, i lost my hdd 6 months ago

ramzey

[gofaster]

To kill a tank, all you need is:

- 1 glass bottle
- 1 rag
- a mixture of 50% gasoline and 50% alcohol
- 1 lighter
- 1 angry citizen

[ramzey]

(1 angry citizen + 1 molotov cocktail)/(1 MG+ 2 km of flat terrain)= dead angry citizen + his 100 clones;)

[Fishu]

Originally posted by ramzey
(1 angry citizen + 1 molotov cocktail)/(1 MG+ 2 km of flat terrain)= dead angry citizen + his 100 clones;)

According to the winter war, it was angry soldier + 10 decommissioned soviet tanks.