Any aircraft owners in here...?

[Dux]

After about 12 years of renting, I've started thinking (semi) seriously about buying an aircraft, probably a Cessna 172 or near-equivalent. I've been doing some web-browsing, and it looks like I may actually (finally) have an opportunity to pursue this.

I'm still in the very, very early stages of this thought process, so I'm wondering if anyone has any practical advice, warnings, etc., about the whole experience.

Particularly... airframe and engine maintenance, tiedown fees, loans, avionics, INSURANCE... the costs that are beyond the initial sales price.

I'd appreciate any practical insight anyone may have.

[Dingbat]

Have you considered a part ownership idea?  This will allow you to spread your costs.

[ra]

Look at the earlier taildragger version of the 172, the 170.  It has relatively few AD's, nice handling, pretty low fuel consumption, and it's a taildragger.  Probably cheaper than a 172.

As far as ownership:  unless you fly a lot, like 300 hours a year, it's probably cheaper to rent or to join a flying club.  The good news is that planes keep their value well, but all the expenses you listed will really suck.

Also, unless you are an AP it's probably best to hold out for a plane which is already in pretty good shape, not a fixer-upper.  If you think 'well, i'll buy it and put in new radios, repaint it, and get a top-end overhaul', then just go find a plane which already has all those things.  It usually costs less to buy a plane in good shape than it does to fix one up.  Plus the down time during repairs is very depressing.

ra

[GrimCO]

As an A&P Mechanic, Pilot, and former aircraft owner, I'll give you this advice...

The 172 is a GREAT little airplane, and as far as airplanes go, it's not as hungry as most for repairs...

However, let me warn you. ALL airplanes are black holes on your wallet. They make boat owners look like penny pinchers... The 172 just has a smaller event horizon than most.

A good rule of thumb to see if you can actually afford to own an aircraft is this: Calculate the yearly expenses... Cost of engine overhaul (about $9,000 minimum) spread over the time until overhaul, insurance, gas, routine maintenance, tires, annual inspection, etc... Now DOUBLE that for the surprises the aircraft will have waiting for you.

I'm convinced that airplanes are alive and demand some sort of payment for the enjoyment they give. Sort of like a woman looking for a sugar daddy. If you can "barely" afford to own an airplane, you better think twice.

[Toad]

Yeah, I own one. It's for sale rightn now.

Ever heard "If it flies, floats or f   s, it's easier to rent it!" ?

Take the cost of an annual on a 172, the cost of motion and non-motion insurance for someone of your experience level and the cost a a decent hangar in your area. (No matter what you own, if you expect it to maintain it's value/appreciate, you need to hangar it. Living out of doors for years does nothing for airplane value.)

Now, see what buying a block of time in a good rental 172 would cost you. Take the total of those three expenses and compare to buying a block of 172 hours. Then compare that to how much you really fly in a year.

I bought my airplane, a PT-19 simply because it's nearly impossible to rent anything like it. It was a blast and I loved it but the time has come to move on.

But I'll give you this example (and PT's are CHEAP to annual)

Annual: $500
Hangar: $2000/year
Insurance: $900 (ATP with lots of hours)

Again, this is a cheap airplane to own. I think a 172 annual will cost you more and insurance will too most likely.. if you're looking at a 172 worth more than ~$60,000.

So, call it maybe $4000-$4500 for just these three expenses (and in reality there will be more) in owning your 172.

How much time can you buy in a block for $4000-4500 in a good 172 rental? Will you fly "yours" that much?

And if you have a major repair... ruh roh.

Owning one is fun, no doubt about it. But it is not cheap.

Good luck!

[Scootter]

As an ex large boat owner and now an owner of a 1969 Reims Rocket (172xp).  Last year I had an in-flight engine loss (Alt failed and the Coupler did not shear, broken gear then breaking the oil pump gear), nothing in the engine was saved and all new parts went back in. case and crank included. Plane on the ground at KOCB at 2235 local (dead stick) 26 smokes and five hours later, home in Vero by friends car. This was about 30k including a prop overhaul to flush and rebuild the hub (Cspeed prop). However I find that after you figure in everything, including the resale value of the AC (boats suck at this) the plane is cheaper to maintain. Boats operate in a much harsher element and things get pricey real quick, like replacing the  running gear and prop set after a soft grounding can hit 10k (per side) in a eye-blink.

    If you can swing, it go for it you will not regret it. If things get bad you can sell out without too much problem. I would recommend a C-172 from 1972- up, read up all you can and go for it. You only live once and this is worth working for. Just tell yourself and others you are going to try it out for two years and see how it goes. If you get a good partner this helps a whole bunch and is recommended.

Good luck and remember there is nothing like having the seat just like you left it and your name on the registration. The jet jocks flying the corporate stuff are flying the corporations plane not there own.
When you walk away from your own plane on the ramp, I bet you $100 you can’t get to your car without looking back, ya just can’t.  By the way always leave the beacon, on that way when you turn around to take a peek at YOUR bird, you will see it blinking and remember to go back and turn off the damn master  “been there done that”.  

 N42588

[hawk220]

Ever heard "If it flies, floats or f s, it's easier to rent it!"


LOL Toad, I was just about to chime in with this little gem.

[GrimCO]

I wouldn't compare a large boat to a small aircraft and say the cost of maintaining the boat it is more...

Give the guy a fair assessment and compare a big boat to an aircraft of comparable cost.

Last I checked, a Hatteras for example cost quite a bit more than a 172.

In all fairness, I owned a Cessna 310R which would cost quite a bit more than a 172 to maintain. But after working on airplanes for so long, I can assure you that even a 172 can get into your wallet pretty hard.

However, you made a great point about being able to sell the airplane without taking a loss. But that only applies if you don't have to dump a bunch of a money into it before you're able sell it. Try selling a 172 with a busted up gear box, prop hub, and metal shrapnel running through the engine. If he had bought that plane for 60K and had to put 30k into it to be able to sell it, I'd count that as quite a loss.

[Ripsnort]

Okay, how about if one decides to own/operate a Midi-light aircraft?  After purchase (I plan to have it pre-fabbed 50% complete mostly frame work, and then finish it myself) how much in comparison to a full-sized aircraft would it be?

[CyranoAH]

Rent!

I'd only go for ownership if it was a 3rd generation ULM. Looks like a GA aircraft, flies even better than one and it's much cheaper to maintain. Perfect if you plan to do a lot (A LOT) of flying around, visiting other fields far from your local airfield and spending time away.

I have no urge to become an owner since at the aeroclub I can rent a wide variety of aircraft: C152, C172, C182, Robin 200, P92JS (ULM certified for GA), PA18, PA28, Flamingo, Bücker-Jungmann, and if you are qualified, aerobatic planes such as a CAP-10B, a Pitts S2B or the jewel of the crown, a Zlin Z-50, or twins such as C310 or PA27.

Prices range from 72 Euro/h of the P92JS to the 200 Euro/h of the twins. Aerobatic ones are around 120 Euro/h.

Since I fly aerobatic but like to travel on a twin, ownership is out of the question

My advice: rent.

Daniel

[Thorns]

Dux,

If you're going to fly a 172 rent it!  If you want an airplane to call your own, go find a classic.  I have always wanted to own a Beech 17 Staggerwing.  Definately would get all your money back when you sell it.

Thorns

[Scootter]

Ya know it occurs to me that sometimes you need to do something just for the hell of it, not because it makes any sense.

Owning a boat or an airplane for pleasure is NOT necessary for anyone, but most things in life aren’t, I don't drive a 40k car or have credit card bills to pay. It boils down to working for what you want after all the requirements are taken care of, an airplane is like this. Most people think only the rich can have aircraft and this is what keeps people away from the fun of ownership. Yes it can cost you money but so does skiing and golf and people spent tons of cash on these sports. If you buy right and do your part, it is something you can do as many average folks own many average airplanes. Go to your local airport and ask around these are not rich folks for the most part, I know I am one. Is it cheap, nope, is it for everyone, nope. But neither is joining a golf club, I did not join one and don't go on a cruse every year, I did go to Sun and Fun and camp under the wing for three days though and had a blast. It can be done, it is cheaper to rent but it is cheaper not to fly at all and get a Harley. You just got to make your choices, mine right now is to own and it has worked out for the last 6 years.

[Scootter]

Thorns, nice idea but a nice stagger will set you back over 150k and the maintance will be 3 or 4 times a 172. I would rather own a 172 then dream of something I can't have.


Just my $.02

Very happy with my real, in the hanger, bug smasher I can fly anytime I want, thank you.

[Maverick]

Dux,

A&P (new) and an aircraft owner for over 10 years.

I have a Piper Comanche 180, a complex bird. Retract gear and constant speed prop. I had been looking for a tripacer or a 172 but found the Comanche and like it MUCH more than a 172.

Here is the skinny on owning a plane. If you have to make the decision based on dollars, don't do it. If it is something you REALLY want because YOU want it then do it. AS another said earlier this is a one way ride and there are no redo's on your life.

I plan for about $2000.00 a year for fixed expenses. That is the insurance ($1300.00 this year) and  the shadeport ($950.00). Then there are the flying expenses, fuel, oil, tires and whatever breaks. Things WILL break. You can cut your maintenance costs DRAMATICALLY if you find an IA (Inspection Authorized Mechanic) who will let you perform much of the labor on your bird. It also gets you very intimate whith the plane so you really know it inside and out.

Avoid taildraggers, classics, one of a kinds and experimentals. Not that there is anyting wrong with them but because those are the most expensive to insure if you can get insurance at all. The oddball planes also are hard to get parts / service for.

Look for what kind of flying you will do. Will you go cross country, carry passengers, fly the pattern, go low and slow, high and far or whatever you think you will do then look for a plane that will meet your expectations of the type of flying you want to do. Getting something that doesn't meet your planned flying life will just frustrate you.

A basic bird like the 172 or cherokee will do most folks fine. A solid 3 person bird with decent range and moderate speed coupled with benign flight characteristics will help you stay in the air. They are also easiest on the wallet.

There are trade offs in AC. The Cessna has better climb and you can see down very well. The piper has a slightly better load, handles winds better and you can see traffic around you at your level and above. Both are about the same speed and range. Both use about the same engine depending on the yer of manufacture. Both are gentle in repair costs, considering other birds like the Beechcraft.

Those are some considrations you should concentrate on. Now here is a BIG BIG BIG  hint. Do NOT be in a hurry to buy. Look around there are some GREAT deals out there but be cautious. Get a mechanic of YOUR own to help inspect the bird. Do not rely on the current owners mechanic, use your own. If the owner won't let your guy look over all the books and inspect the plane, RUN don't walk away. There are other planes to look at.

Get a subscription to Trade A Plane. For $17.00 a year you also get access to the internet adds on an hour to hour basis and a neat paper witrh all kinds of toys in it. If you want to help work on your plane get a subscription to Light Plane Maintenance. They have really great articles ranging from the simple to a full blown overhaul. it is well written and easy to follow for the layman. I still get it today and read it regularly. The very first issue saved me over $50.00 on a simple repair I did myself before I really got interested in working on the old girl myself.

This is very involved I know and really needs a phone call. Here is my e-mail motor31@yahoo.com drop me a line and lets talk plane.

[Dux]

Guys, these are all great words of advice. Thanks very much. I expected to get a wiiiiiide range of viewpoints, and boy... did I!

No, I'm not rich, but I do work very hard and very long, and it rewards me somewhat financially (enough to even consider this anyway). Flying is my only *expensive* hobby per se, and I have no family to look after right now. I don't get to fly much these days because my schedule is busy and unpredictable... it's hard to lock down some "play time" and reserve an aircraft for rental. Plus I'd like to fly places on long weekends and actually go somewhere... most rental places will charge a minimum of 4 hours of flight time per day whether the engine is running or not.

2-3 passengers would be a must for me, which cuts out something like a 152 (which is a great a/c I hear). My dream is to have an amphibian, but that's a bit outta reach...

Although the advantages of partial ownership are obvious, I'm a little leary about it. I guess I've heard more horror stories than I've heard happy endings (maybe you just don't hear about it when things go well).

I've also heard people give the advice that you can buy an aircraft and rent it out to a flight school to make some money back with it... this idea scares the crap outta me.

I wouldn't need anything fancy, but it would definitely be full IFR.

I'm actually planning to look into this over a couple of years... I'm not about to make any snap decisions about anything (as much as I'd love to  )

Thanks again, everyone. Lots of wisdom here.