Author Topic: Looking for a new house  (Read 1847 times)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #45 on: April 30, 2003, 11:04:46 AM »
midnight Target: LAND is non-renewable and for sale. What could possibly make it worthless?

 Oh, I would never argue that, especially in so general terms.
 I only said that housing (and by extension the land for residential use) may decrease in price considerably due to many, many reasons:

 Changes in land-reclamation technology making more land available for housing (dynamite, dykes).

 Changes in technology freeing land from other uses due to increase in productivity - agriculture, factories, warehouses, forestry.

 Changes in infrastructure making more land available for housing (new bridges, highways).

 Changes in political arrangement making more land available for housing (removal of artificial restrictions on building).

 Changes in economy making the existing housing less affordable (inclease in costs of heating/air conditioning, property taxes).

 Correction for previous overspending and overborrowing not supported by increase in production and buying power.

 Decrease in the numbers and or buying power of population.

 Appearance of alternative investments that are more liquid.

 Changes in government tax policies that make alternative investments more attractive by taking value outside of taxmen's reach - property taxes are asessed on the land and house but not on gold hoard or bank balances.

 Change in government fiscal or monetary policies - which are largely to blame for the current sharp increase in prices.

 The demand for land is greatly influenced by demand for housing, including rental land - not all of which is linked to the ownership of land.
 If a high-rise is built with a lot of appartments, the need for housing for many people in that area will be satisfied while the attractiveness of housing/land in the area will be diminished due to increased traffic and overcrowding.


 Many more reasons can be named. How about reasons why the housing prices suddenly shot up so abruptly over the last few years?

 There are specifics to owning a house that mislead some people without economic understanding. A lot of factors like risk and deprivation are not included into total cost of the house/land.

 Most people are heavily mortgaged when owning a house. Say, you owe a $300 mortgage on a $400 house. When the price drops to $250, you would have to add $50 in order to sell the house and get even with the bank. Many people cannot do that, so they keep the house on the market at $300 where nobody buys it - while possibly suffering all kinds of deprivations and losses becasue they cannot move somewhere else and get a better-paying job. They would wait 10 years for a comeback and proudly claim that the investment in the house pays off with a bit of patience - forgetting the financial and quality of life loss they suffered in the process.


 There are some rare cases where land is really limited - like in Brooklyn, but even here the downturn in economy or city fortunes or taxes can - and did - drop the prices.
 Even in Brooklyn the old 2-storey houses are being demolished and replaced by 3-story ones with smaller backyards, so the total amount of housing can increase a lot.

 We have a bumper crop of relatively high-paid elderly retiring soon and being replaced by less-paid and fewer in number generation. There may be a run on the retirement properties but there will be glut on houses and stocks once the retirees sell their prmary residences close to former work and stop contributing to the retirement accounts. It's plain demographics.


capt. apathy: anything someone produces intentionally is a product

 Labor theory of value. I cannot believe you've read Marx, so I'll assume you've got it by hearsay. It was disproved before Marx was even born.
 And you do the typical mistake of only concentrating on narrow - and artificial - aspect.

 When you on the market offering a potholder for which people have so much need, where did that need come from? How did people cope before? Why nobody else came with a solution or substitute? Do your potholders actually worth to the a buyer more than $100 or equivalent amount of his labor - otherwise he would get no advantage from the transacton?

 Even if your potholder saved lives of desperate people, there would be a price beyong a person would not be willing to pay, even if he had money available. And if he does not - well, there is  no demand for it, hovewer great is the need.

 Anyway, you make a good point that if you have stuff nobody needs at a price you want, you will not sell any.
 Why would the housing be any different.

 miko

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #46 on: April 30, 2003, 11:16:29 AM »
Miko.. stop digging.

The price of real estate is based on three things:[list=1]
  • Availability
  • People's desire to live there
  • Inflation (increased salary)
Cheap land is readily available if you do not want to live near existing developments (In the U.S. at least)  In Europe, the availability is somewhat fixed, so people's desire to live somewhere drive the costs more.

The only variable is inflation, and that variable only goes up.  Thus, it drives the cost of property.  In order for it to be negative, there would have to be a catastrophic disaster in the economy.  Something that would make the crash of 1929 look like a slight "dip".  Cause... even during that drastic downturn, property value held its own.

I suppose a nuclear war could also make property less likely to be enhabited too, but once again, the loss of land would pale in comparison to the loss of everyone enhabbiting it.

Anything you've cited adds to the cost of developing land.  It does not reduce the value of it, it increases the cost.  Most real estate investments involve signing papers and either moving into or leasing out property that exists as is.  Having to add to that cost does not make it cheaper.

Oh well miko, I can't make it any clearer for you than that.  Try to muddy it up as much as you'd like to support an incredibly assenine statement.  Maybe you should just rent for the next 30 years and continue insisting that real estate is a bad investment and you'll have no part of it.

MiniD

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #47 on: April 30, 2003, 11:27:31 AM »
Quote
Even if your potholder saved lives of desperate people, there would be a price beyong a person would not be willing to pay, even if he had money available.



this is hilarious.  

so you're saying if I had a product that would save your life, you are gonna die without it, and you had the money to buy it, there's a point where you would just say "F-it, that’s too much damn money, I wont pay, that's outrageous, I'll just go over here and die"

the only way they wouldn't pay whatever I asked (up to the limit of their resources) for a product with such a high need is if they had another supply.

hey look at that, here we are back to the point where the price is being determined be a relationship between supply and demand.

it's all very simple.  I'll type slow incase you can't read fast :p .

you take any product at any given price.
if more people need this product then the price will go up.
if less people want it the price will go down.
if more product is available to the consumer the price will fall
if less product is available the price will go up

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #48 on: April 30, 2003, 11:28:56 AM »
P.S.

 capt. apathy - while calling you ignorant I am certainly using it in a derogatory sense, I attribute no shame to being ignorant in general. We all start ignorant in everything and die ignorant in most areas.

 It's when ignorant dolts stick their noses into complicated discussions after looking up the meaning of a word in a spellchecker that I brand them as ignorant close-minded fools.


 Just the passing familarity with the law of supply and demand "when the price of a good rises, the amount demanded falls" would make a person with a working brain think to ask a question from better-versed or look up some relevant text, because demand here could not possibly mean need.
 How the heck could your need be affected by someone - maybe in another country - changing prices on his wares?

 miko

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #49 on: April 30, 2003, 11:35:43 AM »
Quote
How the heck could your need be affected by someone - maybe in another country - changing prices on his wares?


NO, NO, NO- price is effected by demand (need) not the other way around. are you reading my post from the bottom up? you seem to have it backwards.

and no I didn't have to use the thesaurus to find that need and demand mean the same thing as used in this discussion.  I used it to try to illustrate a point to someone who seemed to be having trouble with his vocabulary

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #50 on: April 30, 2003, 11:41:23 AM »
capt. apathy: this is hilarious.  
so you're saying if I had a product that would save your life, you are gonna die without it, and you had the money to buy it, there's a point where you would just say "F-it, that’s too much damn money, I wont pay, that's outrageous, I'll just go over here and die"


 What is hilarious is how dumb you are.  Dumb an unimaginative. Of course I would not leave my family destitute by selfishly spending all the fortune to extend my life a few more years.

 I am not a mindless animal driven by blind instinck. A year of my life has a definite value compared to the value I put on the well-being of my family. In some cases I would choose extra few years of my life, in others a sum of money would be of more use to my goals.
 It's a purely subjective trade-off depending on my sircumstances. Is it different same for you?


 Oh, I see, apparently it is different for you:

the only way they wouldn't pay whatever I asked (up to the limit of their resources) for a product with such a high need is if they had another supply.

 And I assume you delude yourself into believing "they" would do that becasue you would do the same. So you would sell your children, parents and wife in exchange for your life, you miserable excuse for a human being? To meet whatever price asked by supplier? You value your life so infinitely presious? You would see them burn or get murdered without lifting a finger just to avoid risking your precious skin? You would see them die of starvation or desease just because you needed money for yourself? In that case you sir are scum.

 Are those really your true sentiments about the value of your life?

 miko

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #51 on: April 30, 2003, 11:43:56 AM »
you win, I give up.  you truly are a tard.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #52 on: April 30, 2003, 11:56:34 AM »
capt. apathy: NO, NO, NO- price is effected by demand (need) not the other way around. are you reading my post from the bottom up? you seem to have it backwards.

 Which price? A market price at which the transaction occurs? Why not by supply, after all it takes two to trade? That is a trick question, the price is determined by the intersection of the supply and demand curves, which are just tables/graphs of quantities of goods that people are willing (and capable) of buying at different prices in case of demand or willing (and capable) of supplying in case of supply.

 So we are talking about multitude of prices. Whic one is "effected" by demand? This very minute you would buy 20 widgets at $1 each but only 10 at $3 each and only one at $8 each - and none at $100. You bring that knowlege to the marketplace even before you learn the prices asked by suppliers.
 Does your need changes? Because your demand is different at each price level - at the same moment in time.

 That's of course when you use economic terms, not your own inventons.


 Oh, BTW - my invective in the previous post was just an illustrative reaction to the stupidity of your statements if I were fool enough to think they represented your real thoughts and take them at face value.

 Just becasue you do not realise yourself what you are thinking and cannot formulate your real views clearly, that does not mean I cannot make an educated guess as to the content to your head. :)

 If you have trouble understanding the previous phrase, here it is simplified:
 I do think you are a muddled fool but I do not really think you are a scum of the Earth. :)

 miko

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #53 on: April 30, 2003, 11:59:10 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
[ Oh, BTW - my invective in the previous post was just an illustrative reaction to the stupidity of your statements if I were fool enough to think they represented your real thoughts and take them at face value.

 Just becasue you do not realise yourself what you are thinking and cannot formulate your real views clearly, that does not mean I cannot make an educated guess as to the content to your head. :)
Irony meet miko.  Miko meet irony.

MiniD

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2003, 12:27:37 PM »
That was not irony but sarcasm.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2003, 12:32:04 PM »
No miko... it was irony.  Your attempt at "sarcasm" was basically a self portrait.  The fact that you don't get it only highlights the point.

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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2003, 12:37:07 PM »
Whatever.

Offline capt. apathy

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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2003, 12:56:38 PM »
the 'logic' in your own posts seem to prove my point better than I can myself.  I think I'll let this issue rest.

Offline Puke

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« Reply #58 on: May 01, 2003, 03:13:05 AM »
From a real estate appraiser's standpoint, this convo got a bit interesting.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2003, 03:21:17 AM by Puke »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2003, 05:06:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Puke
From a real estate appraiser's standpoint, this convo got a bit interesting.
LOL Puke!  This is my first post in this thread, and I wondered how the hell we'd got a pissing contest out of a house move thread!

Doh! I find myself agreeing with Mini D. Property is an excellent investment, and will rarely go down in value. The only time I have known property value to fall was during recession following an artificial boom - the early 1990s. In the late 1980s, Britain's property prices rocketed. But the rise was artificial, fuelled by an excess of available money. That was caused by a lowering of interest rates - (European single currency preparation crap). The result was too much money in the economy - and all this money was borrowed money. People were chasing after ever bigger and better houses, and the values were going up and up. It all ended in tears in 1992 one Wednesday afternoon, when Norman "je ne regrette rien" Lamont conceded that we could not keep pace with the German economy. Property values collapsed - only because they had been artificially high before the collapse. The £ tumbled - was $2, and went to $1.53 overnight, and never recovered. Today it's about $1.60.

I'm planning a house move myself this summer! Time to move on from the "bachelor town house", much though I have loved it. I was only meant to be temporary. I did have a larger house at one time, but *she* got that.

Right now, we're seeing another property boom which has just about peaked. My belief is that because the stock market has been down the golden crapper since about 1999, people have taken their money away, and have instead put it in property.

My house search is in the immediate area, and various towns west of here - I'd be closer to Revvin! One of those towns is Hungerford, where I stopped on Tuesday. But I am concerned about the health risks. Too much lead in the air.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2003, 05:21:45 AM by beet1e »