Einstein and Autism

[Sabre]

Thanks, Miko...we can use all the luck we can get.  What you say about Albert E might be true.  I was simply offering the other side of the coin, so to speak.  I never meant to imply the he or anyone should be forced to become someone they're not.  I only suggested that had he and his parents understood his condition more, it might have eased some of the load for him, and that might have actually helped him in the long run.  

It is indeed a delicate balance we must strike as parents.  What my wife and I try to do is encourage, rather than push.  We show our belief and support for Dan, rather than try to bully or cajole him.  We're not trying to turn him into "Mr. Congeniality," just help him to learn to deal with others more effectively, and to understand himself better.  Interacting with others is a skill that can be developed, just like any other.  I believe in the end that those skills will be useful and valuable to Dan, as they would have been to Albert E.

Respectfully,
Sabre

[GrimCO]

Originally posted by miko2d
Often right questions are theoretically proven to have no answers. But when you ask the wrong questions to start with, you are certain not to get any meaningfull answers.

In many cases they can find no possible analogy to be expressed in the human mind terms and all we have are systems of equations.

I fully understand the concept of not being able to express something in terms the human mind can understand. All we know and can relate to can be expressed only in human terms or mathmatically. Try explaining colors to a person who was born blind...

At any rate, I feel that many of the things we experience are but symptoms of something else that is occuring outside of our realm of sight and comprehension.

A good example is a two dimensional creature. He would be bound to a flat surface, and could see around him, but would have absolutely no concept of what up or down is because from his experience, this extra dimension doesn't exist and he can't see it. If a box were above him, he would have absolutely no idea it was even there. If it dropped down and landed in front of him, it would appear to him that a straight line had materialized out of nowhere because he would only be able to see the bottom of the box that was resting in his dimension.

There is no possible way he could explain this because his mind is incapable of visualizing something it is unable to see. He would simply say "Hey, this line just appeared out of nowhere", and people would probably think he was a nut.

I feel that many of the things we see and experience are just portions of what is actually occuring. Any attempts to try to visualize them or explain them is beyond our grasp. We are three dimensional creatures, and are bound by these visible dimensions. The fourth dimension of time is hard enough to grasp as being changeable and malleable, let alone any dimensions that may exhist above that.

[Nash]

Hey Grim... CNN has a story about an Einstein website that's going online in about a half hour (3pm EST) today. Just thought you'd be interested.

" 3,000 digitized images of the Nobel prize winner's writings, Einstein Papers''

"The site also will provide a catalog of the 40,000 pieces of writing and correspondence that make up the body of Einstein's work, much of it written in the scientist's own hand, Buchwald said. "

The website is: http://www.alberteinstein.info/

and the CNN story is: http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/internet/05/19/einstein.online.reut/index.html

[bigUC]

Originally posted by OIO
I read up on Asperger's after reading that article.

All I can say is..WOW.

Its amazing thats almost exactly what I have.

All the above literally applies to ME except the 'They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest.' part.

unbelievable. !

Thanks for the link!

Put on the handbrake there...  I hardly think you have aspergers based on your description, and being interested in yourself is a very "un-asperger" thing to do.   I don't think Einstein had any kind of autism either, at least not diagnosable.  Most autist, aspergers included, fail to show creativity and spontanity.  They may learn something very well or have inherit abilities, but they cannot use knowledge in a creative way.  They are usually stuck within the "paradigm".  Most people who have worked with or diagnosed aspergers or any other form of autism would find it unlikely.  Aspergers is a disabling developemental disorder - it's hardly a label you can slap on yourself or others.  Be careful!

[OIO]

Im aware of that. Im a bit relieved to know that this has been studied. All the info ive read so far says AS can go from 'very mild' (perhaps me? dunno, seems to me it mostly fits) to 'severe'.

As always, its one thing to say "hey this matches me" and actually having it. So yes, i guess ill visit a doctor and bring this to his attention. Worst he can do is give me a saline shot in the left 'nad and send me home for wasting his time

[GrimCO]

Thanks Nash!

Appreciate the link sir!

[miko2d]

GrimCO: A good example is a two dimensional creature. He would be bound to a flat surface, and could see around him, but would have absolutely no concept of what up or down is because from his experience, this extra dimension doesn't exist and he can't see it...
 There is no possible way he could explain this because his mind is incapable of visualizing something it is unable to see.

 Quite a few people claim to have no problem with the fourth dimention. I've never heard them being tested (by, say, giving them three orthogonal projections of that hyper-figure into 3-dimentional space and asking to draw the fourth one), but I would not be surpised if that could be done.
 Now, visualising the fractional dimention is another matter...


bigUC: Most autist, aspergers included, fail to show creativity and spontanity.

 As do most people. It makes sense if autism is just the lack of certain empathic abilities that allows people to avoid "distractions" of human interactions but does not improve other abilities directly.

 miko

[GrimCO]

Originally posted by miko2d
Quite a few people claim to have no problem with the fourth dimention. I've never heard them being tested (by, say, giving them three orthogonal projections of that hyper-figure into 3-dimentional space and asking to draw the fourth one), but I would not be surpised if that could be done.
Now, visualising the fractional dimention is another matter...

Well, drawing in 4 dimensions is impossible. But I do believe you can see, or at least imagine 4 dimensionally to a limited extent. I myself have no idea what a hypercube would look like, other than the shadow projections in 3 dimensions. However, I have been able to picture simple objects (such as a hand for example) in 4 dimensions. This is accomplished by being able to picture the entire hand (both sides) simultaneously. Sounds weird, but it can be done. You just sort of have to "let go" of the way you've always seen things with your eyes.

[miko2d]

GrimCO: Well, drawing in 4 dimensions is impossible.

 Certainly. What I was talking about was not drawing the object but its projections on lower-order surfaces. It was a common exercise in drawing to have top and front projections of some 3-dimentional object or an intersection of objects and teh student is required to produce the view from the side.
 There was a technique to it but after a while my visualisation became good enough that I could draw it freehand and then verify the correctness.

 The projections of a 4-dimentional object on 3-dimantional space would be 3-dimantional objects and there are 4 orthogonal axes rather than 3. Like imagine an object that viewed from "above" is a cube, viewed from the "right" is a cone, viewed from the "front" is a cylinder and now draw what it would look like from z-axis.

However, I have been able to picture simple objects (such as a hand for example) in 4 dimensions. This is accomplished by being able to picture the entire hand (both sides) simultaneously. Sounds weird, but it can be done.

 I am not sure that would do it. As long as you can visualise a path from one point on your "hand" to any other point that would be in 3 dimentions, the object is 3-dimentional.

 How about another analogy. Two jigsaw puzzle pieces are locked in 2-dimentions and cannot be disengaged unless you shift one in the third dimention - to a great surprise of any 2-d creatures. Now imagine that your limks on a chain are really projections of 4-d objects and you can disengage them without breaking them by shifting them into the 4th dimension. That would be an interesting exercise.

 I'll try to program myself to visualise that in my sleep. not much hope though.

 miko

[GrimCO]

Originally posted by miko2d

 How about another analogy. Two jigsaw puzzle pieces are locked in 2-dimentions and cannot be disengaged unless you shift one in the third dimention - to a great surprise of any 2-d creatures. Now imagine that your limks on a chain are really projections of 4-d objects and you can disengage them without breaking them by shifting them into the 4th dimension. That would be an interesting exercise.

 I'll try to program myself to visualise that in my sleep. not much hope though.

Thanks for the engaging comments Miko... Sure do appreciate them!

Another good anology of 4 dimensions is surgically removing an appendix without breaking the skin. It could be done as easily in the 4th dimension as we could pick up a stick.

Try visualizing your hand and seeing it in it's entirety, all sides included. Work on it long enough, and you'll see it

[bigUC]

matter...


bigUC: Most autist, aspergers included, fail to show creativity and spontanity.

 As do most people. It makes sense if autism is just the lack of certain empathic abilities that allows people to avoid "distractions" of human interactions but does not improve other abilities directly.

 miko [/B][/QUOTE]
Autism isn't about "special abilities".  Most autist, Aspergers included, never show any special abilities. (75 % of all autists are moderately or severly mentally retarded.) When they in rare cases are present they are not "useful" in the strictest sence.  They usually anmass information about a subject, replays pieces of music or draw photographic reproductions.  They cannot use these skills creatively, eg. making new music and express emotions through music or painting.  I cannot argue with a notion of "autism light", but for all puposes, these diagnoses are functional eg. they describe a disability that prevents the person from functioning in school, work or social settings.  Eg. without disability, there's no diagnosis of autism.  The lack of communicating/social skills must be present in childhood, and is most likely a major cause of retardism (we develop through interaction).  The best functioning autist (including those with "abilities") are generally also those who's social competence level was most adequate.   For those still interested I include the diagnostic criteria for Asperger from DSM IV:

299.80 pervasive Developmental Disorder Not otherwise Specified 77
/ Diagnostic criteria for 299.80 Asperger's Disorder
A, Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity
13. Restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests, and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
(1) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(2) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(3) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g., hand or finger dapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(4) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
C. The disturbance causes clinically significant impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
D. There is no clinically significant general delay in language (e.g., single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years).
F,. There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self-help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction), and curiosity about the environment in childhood.
F. Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.

[GrimCO]

Hey there BigUC,

I feel that certain "traits" of Asperger's may be fairly common but go undiagnosed due to their lack of severity. Also, physicians these days are all to quick to diagnose children with depression, bi-polarism, or Attention Deficit Disorder, then proceed to medicate it.

I think many of the symptoms associated with these disorders are quite similar, and are therefore hard to diagnose. Perhaps some are actually the same disorder with varying degrees of severity. Who knows...

[SLO]

Originally posted by miko2d
Now, visualising the fractional dimention is another matter...

 miko

answer is easy........


SNOWFLAKES......under microscope show exactly that.....Fractions

was actually a frenchmans theory about fractionnal dimensions of space.....he used snowflakes to explain fractionnal space:cool:

[bigUC]

Originally posted by GrimCO
Hey there BigUC,

I feel that certain "traits" of Asperger's may be fairly common but go undiagnosed due to their lack of severity. Also, physicians these days are all to quick to diagnose children with depression, bi-polarism, or Attention Deficit Disorder, then proceed to medicate it.

I think many of the symptoms associated with these disorders are quite similar, and are therefore hard to diagnose. Perhaps some are actually the same disorder with varying degrees of severity. Who knows...

It's a good observation.  However, symptoms between ADHD and Autism/Asperger are vastly different.   The problem with these diagnoses are that they usually are under- or overdiagnosed in the population, normally because the practitioner fails to employ proper screening tests and other tools like CAST (Childhood Asperger Symptom Test), and instead relies on judgement or gives in to parent pressure.  The etiology of these disorders is also quite different.  But, as you point out, the severity varies and people diagnosed with a certian developmental disorder might or might not have the "proper" neurological abnormality for that given condition.  A diagnosis of these disorders  have a functional meaning (status,prediction, medication, outcome) and describes a (furture) disability.  This is unlike a somatic diagnosis which also says something about cause/etiology.  Having the "traits" of a disorder therefore says nothing of the cause of these traits or predicts other types of behavior.  In fact, most of the criterions for any given psyciatric og developmental disease/state are present in every individual during their lifespan.  It's having a certain set and the severity of these criterions, AND that they cause severe suffering/maladaptation/disabilities that validates a diagnosis. People really should look elsewhere for an explanation of their personality traits...
 

Sorry for hijacking and blabbering, but as you prolly guess it's in my field of work and i just can't let a good opportunity pass...

[GrimCO]

LOL BigUC,

Glad somebody in here knows what they're talking about!

I get a bit frustrated at how quickly many doctors these days prescribe medications. I guess it's the quickest way to get the patients in and out the door and collect the money.