Author Topic: speaking of gun control  (Read 1859 times)

Offline Scootter

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speaking of gun control
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2003, 08:48:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion
The most restrictive and "real" part of the Assault Weapon Ban was the limit of 10 rounds per magazine.  

Of course this only applies to new manufacture, and there are a TON of full size magazines on the market.  The ony real effect was to drive up the price of the existing magazines by about 3 times.  

One question for you AR-15 experts.  Which is the "registered" part of a pre-ban AR15, the upper or the lower receiver? I've never quite figured that out.

Personally, I think the law is more about "looks" and not about function. But this is because a law restricting the functionality of semi-automatic weapons would never have been passed, and the Democrats knew it. Totally asinine.  I hope it doesn't get renewed.

Oh, and FYI, I watched the original vote on this legislation on CSPAN.  The time limit expired on the vote and the bill did not pass, but the Democratic leadership extended the time limit for over an hour while they "worked" on a swing voter, who switched his vote at the last minute and it passed by that single vote.




The lower is the gun everything else is fluff, by the way the Cal (as in left coast )AR-15 has a solid mag well and will only hold 10 rounds and mags are not leagle if they hold over 10 rds in Cal.

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2003, 08:49:00 AM »
Once again, if you aren't buying from a distributor, there is no way to track any assembly date.  You are not required by law to register the assembly date of a weapon and retailers can sell the receivers... right?

There is no way to track this once its in the civilian market.  Serial numbers on the receiver and the initial purchase date from a retailer are it.

And.. I didn't say it'd be cheap;)

MiniD

Offline Syzygyone

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speaking of gun control
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2003, 08:53:55 AM »
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Originally posted by hyena426
ya England's crime rate went to the roof after banning guns,,got the highest rate of crime for population size,,gun related went up,,because the criminals can still get plenty of guns,,,all they did was dissarm the good people from defending there homes,,thats all guns rights do

and whats makes ya mad,,is every president comes in shooting guns and going hunting before they get elected,,like cliton did,,,and after billy became president,,he started passing gun law after gun law,,they are 2 faces after they get in,,lol cant let them take simple simi's because the bans wont stop there,,,they will just go down the line faster,,,this will make it tuffer for bush to get relected again,,lol


If you've got statistics and proof or at least sourcing of this statement, I am sure we'd all like to see it.  Sure would go along way to proving that if you outlaw guns only criminal wil have guns.

Thanks in advance:D

Offline Scootter

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« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2003, 08:54:33 AM »
You are correct, but you will be the manufacture of the weapon and the BATF requires that this type of weapon have a birth date for the purposes that you are decribing. You as the manufacture must have a record of the date of manufacture (to be leagel). If you just said you bought the weapon from a garage sale they would have a hard time proving you otherwise, or even tracking it back very far.

Offline miko2d

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Re: A point of curiosity
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2003, 09:08:21 AM »
Syzygyone: ... why semi automatic assault weapons, which were not around when the 2nd amendment was written,  are somehow covered by an amendment which simply says you have a right to bear arms.

 That is why the wise Founding Fathers did not say "muskets must always be allowed" but "right to bear arms shall not be infringed."
 BTW, the Second Amendment does not grant the right to bear arms but just affirms it. The right exists because the Constitution never gave the government authority to regulate arms and any right not specifically reserved to the government is belongs to the people.

 
For example, we all have the right to free speech but you are not protected if you yell FIRE! in a crowded theater.  What's the difference between limiting the 1st amendment rights and limiting the 2nd amendment rights?


 Prosecuting one for shouting "fire" in the theater does not have anything to do with one's right to a free speech.
 He will be prosecuted for the specific damage and danger he's caused by his action.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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speaking of gun control
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2003, 09:25:38 AM »
So miko is saying that there is no real restriction on free speech?

Offline Airhead

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« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2003, 10:18:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
Typical anti-gun misrepresentation.  The NRA pushed hard for instant background checks.  But the system the FBI came up with had an Orwellian twist to it.  If you underwent a background check and were approved, it kept a record of who you were.   There is no reason for the feds to keep record of this, except to know who is in the market for a gun.  So the NRA went against this type of record keeping.  The purpose of the background check was to keep guns away from felons and wackos, not to monitor law-abiding citizens.

ra


First you say that I'm spouting off typical anti-gun misrepesentation- and then you agree with my statement "the NRA opposed background checks for gun purchasers." It's laughable to claim the NRA opposes background checks because it leaves a "record" of who owns firearms. Really, what are you afraid of? The black helicopters? Ra, do you own a hunting license? Because if you do even the bumbling beaucrats who muck things up can safely assume you own a firearm.

The NRA opposes background checks because they oppose EVERY restriction on the Second Amendment unless an issue (Cop Killer bullets) can be spun to make them appear more moderate (especially if they've been under attack for their stance). The fact is they are a lobby group sworn to fight any and all proposed restrictions of the Second Amendment. They are subjective and single minded in this purpose, which is exactly what you'd expect in an advocate.

The fact is, though, most Americans favor background checks for gun purchases and most Americans are in favor of removing "Saturday Night Specials" from our streets. Spin it however you want, but the truth is the NRA opposes IN PRINCIPLE ANY restriction on gun ownership.

Offline ra

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« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2003, 10:41:38 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
First you say that I'm spouting off typical anti-gun misrepesentation- and then you agree with my statement "the NRA opposed background checks for gun purchasers." It's laughable to claim the NRA opposes background checks because it leaves a "record" of who owns firearms. Really, what are you afraid of? The black helicopters? Ra, do you own a hunting license? Because if you do even the bumbling beaucrats who muck things up can safely assume you own a firearm.

The NRA opposes background checks because they oppose EVERY restriction on the Second Amendment unless an issue (Cop Killer bullets) can be spun to make them appear more moderate (especially if they've been under attack for their stance). The fact is they are a lobby group sworn to fight any and all proposed restrictions of the Second Amendment. They are subjective and single minded in this purpose, which is exactly what you'd expect in an advocate.

The fact is, though, most Americans favor background checks for gun purchases and most Americans are in favor of removing "Saturday Night Specials" from our streets. Spin it however you want, but the truth is the NRA opposes IN PRINCIPLE ANY restriction on gun ownership.

Airhead, you don't know what you are talking about.  Again, typical.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2003, 10:44:11 AM »
midnight Target: So miko is saying that there is no real restriction on free speech?

 Theoretically no, practically there has been occasional violations of that principle.
 Even when that principle is violated, the prosecution is not presented as punishment for person having and sharing some ideas (which is what free speech is about) but for causing harm or endangering people by his/her actions.

 In a famous case a women was convicted for telling her mother that "I wish all hispanics learned English" (in a bit more rude form) that was overheard and presented as having caused harm to anothrr person.

 While the case is clearly trumped up, it clearly indicates that authorities respect the principle and try to avoid or misrepresent the case as other than a free speech issue, rather than violate it.

 Her right to say bad things about hispanics to a willing audience was not disputed, like a preson can shout "fire" all he wants in his house as long as nobody objects.

 Sometimes the distinction between speech and act is narrow and may be misrepresented.

 For instance it is prefectly OK to discuss in a company that some person should be killed or government violently overturned but it is illegal to actually plot a murder or conspire a violent coup to that effect.

 Wishfull thinking is a free speech while an act of conspiracy is a crime. the latter can be misrepresented as the former, as multiple government prosecutions and blacklistings of people in the 50s illustrate.


 There are many borderline controversial cases that are solved one way or another to dissatisfaction of some people.

 Is production of child pornography pictures that was generated artificially (no actual children involved and endangered) or creating fictional erotic literature cause harm to anyone? If not, it is a free speech issue and is protected, however disgusting.

 Is preaching communism without conspiring to overturn the current order by force harms someone or puts him/her into imminent danger? If not, it is protected, however unpalatable.

 What about profane language in public places? Many people feel hurt if they are forced to listen to it, so the profane language is banned in public though it is not a violation in a company of like-minded peope.
 People who do not feel that profane language causes any harm feel unfairly restricted.

 Some speech provokes or threatens to provoke violence. In those cases what's punished is the provocation, not the speech.


Airhead: the NRA opposes IN PRINCIPLE ANY restriction on gun ownership.

 I am not current on the registration issue, but guns ownership is a right of all people who have not lost it. Felons do lose certain rights in our society and verification whether a person is a felon is totally consistent with gun ownerhsip right and NRA should not oppose it.

 If what they oppose is not a verification itself but the governmental database kept on people who've applied for such verification, it's a very different issue altogether.
 Such information may endanger a person if it falls into the wrong hands and the government has no business maintaining it. Desiring to legally own a firearm is not a crime and such people should not be treated differently from everyone else - otherwise it violates Equal Protection clause.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #54 on: May 09, 2003, 10:45:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
Airhead, you don't know what you are talking about.  Again, typical.


ROFL...

Jane you ignorant slut!


(wanted to get in on the intelligent reparte')

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #55 on: May 09, 2003, 10:53:30 AM »
NRA does not oppose background checks....  NRA does oppose record keeping... they oppossed keeping records for ammo purchases for the same reasons... invasion of privacy for no reason... No criminal was ever caught by the recording of ammo purchases the expensive and cumbersome program has been abondoned.

I personaly feel that if someone robs a bank or even shoots school children or snipes at people from a rooftop.... when they let him out of prison they should hand him his gun back.
lazs

Offline Airhead

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« Reply #56 on: May 09, 2003, 10:55:17 AM »
Typical Ra tatics- he can't debate the issue so he resorts to personal attacks. As a matter of fact the NRA is to the Second Amendment as PETA is to animal rights. They are of the extreme positions of their advocacy. Nothing wrong with it- just the way it is.

Offline ra

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« Reply #57 on: May 09, 2003, 10:59:35 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Airhead
Typical Ra tatics- he can't debate the issue so he resorts to personal attacks. As a matter of fact the NRA is to the Second Amendment as PETA is to animal rights. They are of the extreme positions of their advocacy. Nothing wrong with it- just the way it is.

Airhead,

I always debate the issue.  You just throw out New York Times editorial statements as though they are fact.  

By the way, which amendment to the Constitution does PETA fight for?

ra

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #58 on: May 09, 2003, 11:00:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
Airhead,

I always debate the issue.  You just throw out New York Times editorial statements as though they are fact.  

By the way, which amendment to the Constitution does PETA fight for?

ra


the K9th

Offline Mini D

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« Reply #59 on: May 09, 2003, 11:08:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
NRA does not oppose background checks....  NRA does oppose record keeping... they oppossed keeping records for ammo purchases for the same reasons... invasion of privacy for no reason... No criminal was ever caught by the recording of ammo purchases the expensive and cumbersome program has been abondoned.
We never saw the recording of ammo purchases here... at least I never did.

As for the "does not oppose background checks, just record keeping" spin on things...

The fundamental flaw to the distinction between the two is that the NRA claims you can't do one without the other, no matter what the system.

Also, there was a certain "tradeoff" with the background check.  Most states waived the cool off period once it was implimented.  For a handgun, some states would require you to wait up to two weeks after purchase to actually take the weapon home.  I don't know exact stats now, but I'd be willing to bet there aren't many (if any) states that still have that restriction (even on handguns).

Airhead hit it pretty much on the head, despite ra's claims otherwise, with this statement:
Quote
The NRA opposes background checks because they oppose EVERY restriction on the Second Amendment unless an issue (Cop Killer bullets) can be spun to make them appear more moderate (especially if they've been under attack for their stance). The fact is they are a lobby group sworn to fight any and all proposed restrictions of the Second Amendment. They are subjective and single minded in this purpose, which is exactly what you'd expect in an advocate.
Its easy to disprove... just find one restriction they've supported.  Background checks?  Nah... I've shown the catch on that one.  Hard to justify being against them... so you have to identify the implicities of having them and attack that.

I like having the NRA around... it has a tendancy to keep legislatures honest.  Well... as honest as can be expected.  Its basically all you can hope for out of any lobby group.  Because they are all singleminded and semi-militant in their behavior.  Its what makes them all so easy to attack.

MiniD