Forgotten Battles

[Furball]

**** i hereby anounce that the drunk is no longer on probation****

[jEEZY]

There's plenty of accounts from WWII of B17, B24, B25, and B26 pilots watching their group or element leader, or wing elements disintegrating during fighter attacks.

Please let me know where I can read about these thanks.

Ken

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

"The American Airmen In Europe" by Roger Freeman

"Clash of Wings" by Walter J. Boyne

"The Great Book of World War II Airplanes" by many authors, ISBN: 0-517-16024-2

"The Wild Blue" by Stephen Ambrose

Those should get you started.
-SW

[MoMoney]

Furball your Just angry that I shot you -down.

[Batz]

"The Fortunes of War -- a history of the 492nd Bomb Group on Daylight operations" by Alan G. Blue

It can be obtained from Cliff Bishop at East Anglia books, nr Bishops Stortford, England.

During this brief  eighty eight  day period the 492nd suffered heavier losses than any other B-24 Group which eventually led to the decision to remove the 492nd from daylight operations. And as part of the 14th Combat Wing, 2nd Bomb division , the 492nd were to find themselves on the 7 July mission on the end of the first mass Sturm assault carried out in Gruppe strength by a Luftwaffe Sturmgruppe .

 

The Luftwaffe, in fact, was well organized on 7 July 1944. Liberators especially equipped to monitor enemy fighter frequencies actually heard the attacking ZG 26 (410s) pilots ordered to hit the "third formation" (i.e., the 14th Wing) as the "first formation" had too many escorting fighters protecting it.

The main enemy concentration from Magdeburg plus reinforcements from Southwest Germany, as many as 175 single engine and 125 twins in all, unleashed their attacks against the center of the column. Although one squadron of the leading 389th Group moving into Halle lost three bombers to enemy fighters when it strayed from the parent force, and the 489th lost one over Aschersleben, the majority of the attacks were hammered against the 14th Wing attacking Bernberg. As noted earlier the 44th Group was flying directly behind the 392nd at a three minute interval. At the IP (the 44th noted in its mission report) "FOUR GROUPS OF B-24'S CAME IN FROM THE EAST AND IT BECAME NECESSARY TO SWING TO THE RIGHT... FIGHTER SUPPORT WAS EXCELLENT." In other words, the 492nd was now exposed to attack from the rear, and all local escort had gone with the 44th. Thus was the fate of the 492nd again sealed.



From six o'clock the enemy fighters fell on the Group's low left squadron like a sledgehammer. Capt. Ernest E. Pelkey's B-24 was hit, spun and then exploded with everybody still inside. Lt. MacMurray and crew went down for the second time under an enemy fighter's guns but without a trace of the luck they had experienced on 15 June  ( MacMurray and his crew had been Priller's 100th victim   over Normandy in June but had been able to make their way back to American lines and home to   North Pickenham )                                                                                                                

S/Sgt  Francis Larrivee, gunner, Lt Raymond Pascual, bombardier and S/Sgt Walter Schlosser, gunner. Three members of Lt Dave MacMurray's 856BS crew . A 'tough luck' crew, they had suffered much in the run up to 7 July 1944 . Losses amongst 856BS crews  had been  particularly heavy on the 20 June mission to Politz. The crew is still listed MIA and the wreck of their aircraft  which lies near Magdeburg has never been formally identified. (Info courtesy Russell Ives, photo from Bill Beasley's 492nd journal The Happy Warrior)
   

The battle raged up to and over and beyond the target, with the route marked by the wreckage of the Liberators of Watson, Harding, Jacks, Kilpatrick, Newman, Steneman, Frank Haag, Smiley and Bocksberger.                                                                                                                      

All twelve persons in Harding's lead aircraft managed to bail out but were badly beaten, and one killed, by German civilians when they landed. Everybody but the nose and tail gunners left Jacks' B-24. The latter was dead, but Sgt. Vince Bradeka, trapped in the nose turret by fire, was far from it.The aircraft circled for five minutes before it crashed, while enemy fighters continued to make passes. Bradeka was seen shooting until the end.                                                                        

Events aboard Frank Haag's aircraft were equally grim. The copilot and radio operator were dead on the flight deck, which was a total wreck. Two gunners were dead at their stations, and there was a fire in the bomb bay. Meanwhile in the nose compartment the following was taking place - quoted verbatim from what must be one of the classic action vignettes of World War II. This was written by Haag's navigator, Lt. Ralph Goloven, upon his release from POW camp in 1945:

"When leading a mission I always found it best, after definitely establishing the IP and target, to ride on the nose wheel doors, giving the bombardier complete freedom of the little space in the nose. We had always flown B-24J's whose nose wheel doors open upward. This time we were flying a B-24H, whose nose wheel doors open down-wards, and I had forgotten this, otherwise I would never have been on them. After bombs were reported away, I heard the pilot say rudder control was lost, and though there was much firing I didn't think it was anything serious. Interphone was shot out soon after, and about two minutes past the target I noticed that the nose gunner, who always was so careful about shooting in short bursts and handled his turret very smoothly, must have been hit for the turret suddenly and violently slewed around to the right and the ammo tracks leading to the turret from the ammo boxes in my compartment were running wild. I started to get up from the wheel doors when I noticed the bombardier look out one window, then the other, rip his flak suit off and snap on his parachute. I still didn't think too much about the matter but took my flak suit off in order to move more quickly into the nose to help the nose gunner. Something prompted me to reach for my chute which was on the catwalk to the right and (I) had just started to get from my knees to climb into the nose when the bombardier hit the emergency release, and out I went with chute in hand. Later the bombardier told me he saw the plane completely on fire in the wing section and, fearing immediate explosion, thought only of getting out fast.

"After falling I managed to hook the left side of the chest pack and, after pulling rip cord with no result, ripped the chute pack open by hand, coming down with only the left side fastened. I still believed nothing serious had happened. Next day I found out our ship had exploded in mid-air."

George Haag, flying in the lead squadron, watched his brother's plane go down.


The 492nd lost one other at Bernberg - the only aircraft lost from the lead squadron. Small deviations in routes and timing  had placed the 453rd and 492nd on a collision course. As the formations, both under fighter attack, approached each other Major Heaton, sitting between the seats of Konstand's lead B-24 as Command Pilot for the mission, nudged the pilot and pointed to the on-coming Liberators. Lt. Konstand, an utterly dedicated officer whose only intent at that moment was to bomb his target, acknowledged their presence with a single comment: "They're empty and we're full. Let them move over!"

Just then the aircraft flying deputy lead for the 453rd, which actually was a PFF Liberator supplied by the 389th, was hit and veered toward the on-coming 492nd with its right wing on fire. The events that followed are again quoted from the mission diary of Lt. Crowley.

"Lt. Cary was flying on our right wing - his wing tip practically in our side window. I was called to the back of the plane by Sgt. McCarthy whose heated suit had shorted and was burning him. I tried unsuccessfully to fix it and finally sent him to the flight deck to keep warm while I remained in back to man his window gun. I took over the gun facing Cary. Suddenly Sgt. Coomer, the nose gunner, started quite a fuss on the intercom as he saw another plane thundering in on us head-on. We all floated about 2 feet off the floor as O'Sullivan put it into a steep dive. Just as he did I saw the two planes come together. It almost seemed like slow motion; Cary's wing was sheared off, the plane seemed to stay in level flight as the gasoline poured out of the wing just as though someone were emptying a tumbler of water. Then it started to go all directions at once."

Both B-24s spun in, leaving a single parachute in their flaming wake. Underneath the canopy was the collision's only survivor, the navigator from Cary's crew....".

I can post a bunch of stories like this. The lw never attacked an entire bomber stream.

A bomb group had 18 bombers in 3 6 man flights. Each flight had 2 3 ship elements. See pics below.









Each Group was seperated by mile. A 1000 ship raid would stretch 100 of miles. The escorts patrolled specific points along the bomber stream. The lw would have scouts out to pick elements along the bomber stream that had little escort. When they attacked they tore those bombers up. They formed "gefetchsverband". See pick below



The allies learned that they could send fighters ahead and attack the lw while they were forming up in these gefechtsverband.

1 group could loose 1/2 their ships. The lw mostly had 1 pass to attack before the bombers called in their little friends. But when the lw attacked it meant bombers would be shot down. On many occassions the lw had large kill counts.

[Batz]

fyi I agree with SW. I can kill bombers (he 111 pe 2 tu 2 pe 8 sbms etc) with 1 pass. In il2 shot placement matters. I can nail stuff with those taters much like I can in ah. But again where you land those hits matters.

Bombers in ah are easy to kill but if you ever watch a film of "3 ships going down in 1 pass" count the number of rounds in each bomber.

[jEEZY]

unfortuantly have read wild blue...
have the big book...
will check out the others thanks

for armour buffs check out Belton Coopers Death Traps--probably the best book on Shermans in WWII.

jeezy

[jEEZY]

the more I play FB the more issues I find...Its good and imo better than AH in many repects...but alas the exterior has started to tarnish a bit...

jeezy

[Eagler]

best thing about IL2/FB is it makes you better in AH ... way better.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

The American Airmen in Europe is a somewhat small book, about half the pages of Wild Blue, but is nonetheless a good read and gives good insight into the guys who flew in WWII.

The others are more documentaries, except the Great Book of WWII Airplanes is actually about a select few airplanes with detailed analysis of their development cycle and several anecdotal passages regarding each plane in their respective sections.

It's a good book with terrific pictures and fold outs.

Like Batz said, in Il2 downing planes in a single burst is all about shot placement and also hitting at your convergence range. You can literally saw planes in half with the P40 or P47 if you hit them on a certain spot with a quick burst at your gun's convergence points.

The differences between Il2 and AH are too much to really compare one to the other. AH uses the method of each bullet doing a damage point based on size of round, distance travelled, explosiveness of round and relative durability of the aircraft. Once a certain point is reached, the part falls off. Also, all bullets seem to effect a certain structure in the same manner... so regardless of the two rounds hitting the outer inner wing and 4 rounds hitting the inner part of the inner wing, the damage is culmulative to that part and can result in that part reaching it's maximum damage value and coming off.

In FB it's much the same with having certain steps in between where damage graphics are progressively made to look worse. It also appears that a 20mm hitting the outer side of the inner wing will do damage to that area and the outer wing, and a hit to the inner side of the inner wing will result in damage to the wing root/fuselage and inner wing. So hitting the same area in close proximity twice (or more, depending on the round) will typically result in the part being destroyed.

All in all, FB is fun as hell and there isn't a single thing like it out there. AH is fun as hell and there really isn't a single thing like it out there of the same calibre. (Sure there is WB3.... but........)

Can't go wrong playing and enjoying both.
-SW

[Nifty]

Originally posted by Eagler
best thing about IL2/FB is it makes you better in AH ... way better.

It has made me better in 109's for sure.  I never was able to fly them well at all in AH.  I played FB for awhile, and when I flew 109s in AH after that, I was more successful in them, especially against the La's and Yak's in the Eastern Front setups.  I even had a good run in a 109 during a Squad Op against La's and Yak's.  

[Creamo]

I spend 90% of my time in FB in outside view mode on long missions just digging the views and planes. In AH, I spend 90% of my time on long missions on the internet or doing chores.

Weird.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

There's your problem Creampuff... you fly with externals on, give it a go with "No externals" and "Cockpit always on". I find myself doing the same thing in FB as I did in AH: Watching my bellybutton and scanning for dots. On long coop missions I concentrate on fuel conservation and keeping my engine cool, which is something AH doesn't offer to the dimensions FB does.
-SW

[Manedew]

Originally posted by Creamo
-Worst view system this side of the Pecos (no 6 view, yet allows 'no cockpit')

Do you have TrackIR or a mouse? Good grief.

Il-2 fails marginally in the 6 view as it doesn’t compensate for torso movement in the hat views, as where AH exploits it, and doesn’t support mouse or TR at all. Yet you benchmark AH in comparison?

Your wrong, and HTC is right for catering to the gameplay tastes of the masses. I’d like a realism change however, and more features like IL-2  provides.

IMO you need a view system like AH .. I mean we're looking screens about 20 somethign inches or less with max resolution of 1600x1200 ... further limiting your ability to see is just stupid IMO

I can turn around in my chair right now and look behind me... with 180 degrees of vision!  I think HTC understands this... I hope they do anyway in makeing AHII

Originally posted by  jEEZY  
In response: I doubt there was ever one instance of a b-17 exploding into thin air on one pass--perhaps being mortally wounded yes, but total and abrupt destruction no? Perhaps with a well placed 88mm flak shell or a direct hit on an O2 bottle--but please total destruction? Sorry I dont have the time to research this more to flesh out this issue a bit more would make an interesting paper: B-17's Survivability and the Leathality of the Luftwaffe Cannon: A Study. But alas my thesis was on Car Culture and its effect on American Armour tactics in the western front 1944-45.

AH planes tend to explode because of pilot kill.... try shooting the cockpit sometime

[jEEZY]

last time I checked a plane won't explode mid-air when pilot dies.