For HTC: My suggestion for a new perk list('43~early '44 MA environment)

[B17Skull12]

Originally posted by TBolt A-10
This would probably be true for only a very few noobs.  They have no character & don't belong here if all they care about is flying the best w/out earning the right to do so.  That's the idea behind T.O.D.  And, I think it can be applied to the M.A., as well.

again your wrong.

all the expirenced players would be in the ubber planes and newbies would never be able to get any perks and like all humans they would get frusttrated and leave.

Better off creating an arena for newbies than doing that.

[TBolt A-10]

Originally posted by B17Skull12
all the expirenced players would be in the ubber planes

do you fly uber planes often?

and, it's you're; not your.  

[jodgi]

Ï haven't got the patience to read through all this... this may have been suggested already.

But what about letting the ENY (or something like it) value of planes also affect the rank, in the same manner as perks.

Many players up "the best" planes in attempt to maximise their kills and survivability in order to get high rank. This clearly shows when you review the top contenders.

There is no difference (as far as I know) in score/rank between a kill by a C202 and a niki.

What if a kill in a C202 gave much more score/rank per kill than a niki kill? There are many people flying for rank in AH, and I am positive that many of them would change from their usual 51d, spit, lala and nikis and fly planes that would be better for score/rank.

This way people could choose how they want to play, noone would be forced in any way. We get more variation in the MA because people choose freely among "lesser" planes. Players who like to see themself land numerous kills can still choose to up a lala or niki without having to pay for it. People that don't care about rank can continue to not care. I can't see any serious hooks with such a system.

Imagine this opn ch. 1:
"Ahhh, you P40B scoredweeb... up a good plane instead!"
Wouldn't that be something!

When I first started I wanted a lot of perks, so I learned to fly the planes that had high ENY value. Now I have more perks than I have use for, but I still fly those planes because they challenge me.


Dang! I think this is a very good idea!

What do you think?

[AdmRose]

One vote FOR.

[buscaglia]

Very interesting project Kweassa. I vote for it.

[DYGCaps]

I support Kweassa's perk agenda, but jordgi's idea is a very interesting one, and should be discussed further...

[13Promet]

As for me the basic idea is correct, but the final result would be even more people flying spitIX, which I don't consider a good outcome.

IMO AH planeset would be great by implementing the TOD as it is in WB, where the whole wartime is elapsed during the month, getting new planes according to historical release data.
It allows to fly slow, turning plane at the beginning, then fast and heavilly armed ones later on.


Best regards



Promet

[Edbert]

Originally posted by DYGCaps
I support Kweassa's perk agenda, but jordgi's idea is a very interesting one, and should be discussed further...

I'd vote for either one myself, something should be done to reduce the volume of the big-4, just to have some more variety if nothing else.

[AKFokerFoder+]

Other than the Jets and the Tempest, I despise the perk system.

This game is already way to difficult to learn, and the life blood of any flight sim is the newcomers.  

We keep pushing "realism" and sacrifice game play.  Let the newcomers fly in P40s so they will get really frustrated trying to fight the top pilots in top performing perked aircraft.  

Can you imagine a flying a Tempest in a arena where LA-7, Pony Ds and 190 Doras are nearly extinct due to perking?  It would be slaughter.  I personally fly perks very little, because knowing the envelop edge on the aircraft you are flying and how to maximize  your rides strengths and weaknesses are more important than sheer performance.  It is not the plane, it is the pilot of the plane.

No matter how you perk the planes to make the MA the way YOU want it, it will still be massive raids by one side on the other.  Big furballs with one side vulching the other.  Some call it realism, I call it an arcade first person shooter.  And I call it fun.

Yeh, perk the NIKI and the Spits and the LA7s, and then try to attract newcomers.    

You screw with the perk system, you screw with a proven formula, and just may kill what you love.

AKFokerFoder+  (call sign AKff)

[AWCHKRS]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Thank you for the salute Halo



 It's been mentioned before, but personally I think what you have said is just a popular myth. I admit it is quite difficult to set a standard on which pilot is a "veteran", and which is "average", but regardless of it all I believe the influence of "veterans" in the MA, at least in a large scale, is close to non-existent.

 The best players don't need any advantage to be the best - they've already got what it takes(even if we give the Tempests and F4U-4s, Spit14s to the 'average/rookie' pilots for free, they'd still be shot down regularly, striving for a 1:1 K/D ratio.   ).

 Nor have they become recognized as "the best" by using planes that require a lot of perks. I don't think we have statistics on this, but empirically, it seems most of the recognizable vets are usually P-51D/P-38L pilots, with speck of LW veterans in usually G-10s, and few more Spit/N1K2 veterans of PAC timezones. <- Note that all the suggested planes, are actually the best of free planes which I am looking forward to seeing them perked.

 If there is any advantage that the vets gain from this system, it is that they get to fly the 'super planes' on their whim. But even that, is a product of how the certain planes are priced, not a fault of the system itself.



 In regards to sort of a 'philosophical' discussion, it is very intersting to see people again and again referring to perk prices as a 'penalty'. Having to pay perk prices, are conceptually recognized as 'punishment'. Sort of reminds me of how many people view taxes



 That is true.

 But you must realize this: "other needs" do not form an alternative to this particular problem at hand. It can merely divert our attention to something else, temporarily. Once the excitement is over, sooner or later people will again start complaining about all the malicious kamikaze attacks, all the runstangs and Spit/Niki dweebs.

 One way or another, people must face this problem, and either decide to 'tolerate' or 'object'. Of course, no matter how perfect a system there will always be complaints. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no way to at least partially treat the problem and make it better.



 That actually might happen. If the MA is just full of Tempests and 262s, people will start looking for an alternative.

 I don't believe anybody views the MA as 'historic'. Gameplay balance does not necessarily aquaint itself with history - meaning; there are people who don't care about history at all, but still want to see a MA nicely rounded and balanced out, without too many jets and rockets, and without too many planes of a certain type infesting the whole area.
 


 But the CT perks, work EXACTLY the way it is expected to be working, with EXACTLY the desired effect.

 ...

 If there is one thing I can say, abolishment of perks, will bring to the MA a catastrophic disaster.

 All the negative problems of the current MA, are direct results of non-structured gaming. The current perked planes, are the "absolutely unallowable" last resort planes that will kill the gameplay - that is why they are so heavily perked(in this case, the word 'punitive' does seem adequate).

 It is not the existing methods of structure that people are dissatisfied with - it's the lack of structure, which fuels the certain types of activities solely concentrated on "winning the game no matter the cost", that people feel uncomfortable with.

 If AH compares itself with the the growth of cities, AH is like Rome. A modern day city which evolved from the ancient times - where a certain "core" of gameplay components formed the very first stages of the "city". As new concepts and developments appeared, they were added around the "core" in a patchwork.

 The result, is a very beautiful and impressive cultural city, with unfortunately a diabolical road system and messy patchwork of city blocks and zones - that's how current AH is like.

 In the first stages of AH, where planes and pilots were few, the territorial combat didn't mean much. Everybody knew everybody, and they all enjoyed pure A2A combat. Even if there was a land-grab scheme, it was simplified, easy, and not even all that important. Important real-life concepts that influence large scale battles - such as attrition, logistics, economical structures, and etc etc. - weren't in the game.

 As AH grew older, more and more concepts were added in to accomodate certain aspects of the game which were newly required with the growth of gamer population. A lot of them helped, but some aspects, just weren't compatible with how AH was designed in the first place.

 Now, if we want to get rid of perks, we would have no choice but to ask HTC to implement a new MA, with all the current concepts and aspects of gameplay re-evaluated, re-designed, and restructured - like how one would build a totally new city in the modern times. Preplanning and structuring.

 I suspect that kind of restructuring is what we might expect from the AH2:ToD mode. The MA will remain as it is. But that does mean, that the current problems of the MA will also be preserved.

 Then I say we find a method to 'tweak' the gameplay without having to add in any major/new gameplay system that would take time and resources - *shrug* the only real alternative for doing that, is using the perk system. No other choice at all.

  Kawessa , " I have never seen so much BULL CRAP " run outa one mouth on this BBS in four years of reading it . Volumes of it !!!
 You want to build a custom game just for you , why don't you go some  Where else,  and do it . You remind me of people who knock on my front door on  Saturday mornings , and try to convert me into a witness of sorts . "


 

Well, Kweassa, to use your Roman analogy, you certainly are among the emperor's most articulate inner circle perk advisors.

 The existing perk system works !  

 CHECKERS

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by AWCHKRS
Kawessa , " I have never seen so much BULL CRAP " run outa one mouth on this BBS in four years of reading it . Volumes of it !!!
 You want to build a custom game just for you , why don't you go some  Where else,  and do it . You remind me of people who knock on my front door on  Saturday mornings , and try to convert me into a witness of sorts . "


 
 

 The existing perk system works !  

 CHECKERS

Hmmm I have been getting the same feeling.
If anyone starts suggesting that the BBS is a suitable Poll for such issues...Well HORSE HOCKEY. So far there are 129 replies. Some of which are repeats. Hardly a gauge of the opinion of the general populous of AH. Nope..Its always us same babblers that reply to the BBS. Most of the replies in the BBS are from Long timers. NOT the casual MAJORITY that pay a subscription to HTC. I would think LONG and HARD before implementing such a proposal.

[bozon]

The existing perk system works !

how does it work?

If the perking of a plane means removing it from the game - it works.
the 262 is one exception since people who fly it are veterans with thousands of useless perks. The other is the CHOG since it's cheap and has no perk tag (and this is what is suggested in the new perking).

how many tempestes, spit 14, F4u-4, Ta152 do you see flying around? They might as well have never been introduced to the game. Same goes for the 109e, spit I, hurry I, boston, P40e, SBD and other hangar queens, that have no place in a 1944-5 areana.

you say it works, bacuase for you it's the same as if none of the above planes were in the game.

Either make the perks usefull or make two areanas with no perks at all.

Bozon

[AWCHKRS]

Originally posted by bozon
how does it work?

If the perking of a plane means removing it from the game - it works.
the 262 is one exception since people who fly it are veterans with thousands of useless perks. The other is the CHOG since it's cheap and has no perk tag (and this is what is suggested in the new perking).

how many tempestes, spit 14, F4u-4, Ta152 do you see flying around? They might as well have never been introduced to the game. Same goes for the 109e, spit I, hurry I, boston, P40e, SBD and other hangar queens, that have no place in a 1944-5 areana.

 

you say it works, bacuase for you it's the same as if none of the above planes were in the game.

Either make the perks usefull or make two areanas with no perks at all.


 

Bozon

How do you know "Whats for Me ? , FYI I use the LA 7 , The P 51 b&D , The F5, The F4u D and P 47 .! thats my ride of choice. I also use the Zero on occasion . Also I use the Spi IX .     Either make the perks usefull or make two areanas with no perks at all.                  Good Idea , save all this FR  perk crap for the Concept of Tour of Duty , and I have always wanted to see the complete perk system "go away" and use a rolling plane set . As for the ME 262 ..... maybe if HTC would add some late WWII planes ( Like the P47 N, the late KI 94 high alt IJN fighter / bomber interceptor  or the Spit XIX for example) they would not be such a good ride . Also they could be in limited
numbers per terrain set / time / maybe 20 per country / or 1 or 2 allotment per player, per terrain set ...hell who knows? , but it could be setup some kinda way ....that worked .  Of corse this is just my personal thoughts and not to be "read into" as a "push " like whats going on in the  other "Dead Sea Scrolls volumes of BS that are this thread !
 I belive that a player should have the right of choice, as to what ride they want, with out  having to pay a silly "token price of tokens " just to beable to fly a Spit XIV ...... next thing we can expect is that the ability to shut down crosswinds will beable to  had for a few perk points , and maybe also try to perk amo counters in the cockpits too while their at it, oh and don't for get the blowtorch sunglare  ........ Heck who knows ? maybe "the Kawassa perk addgenda supporters" will decide to include a drop tank for the LA 7 and LA5 at a perk price too ..... Ya. this perk addgenda  crap would be really FR COOL ......for gameplay ..  


 
 

Either make the perks usefull or make two areanas with no perks at all.

I also want you to know , That I  respect  your  concerns  and opinions in regards to this matter , and hope you will beable to read, and understand that !  

CHECKERS

[Soda]

Originally posted by bozon
how does it work?

how many tempestes, spit 14, F4u-4, Ta152 do you see flying around? They might as well have never been introduced to the game. Same goes for the 109e, spit I, hurry I, boston, P40e, SBD and other hangar queens, that have no place in a 1944-5 areana.

Bozon

The C-Hog was in no way removed from the game.. it still thrives but just isn't "thrown away HO'ing everything" like it used to be.  It's nicely controlled, I meet C-Hog's all the time but not every Hog I meet is a C (like it used to be).

The problem with the other perl aircraft is simply the lack of value vs. the perk cost.  The Me163 and Me262 are so special that they DO represent their value in perks.  The Spit XIV, Tempest, F4U-4, Ta152 do not, they are marginally better under certain conditions but the perk tags basically remove that advantage.

If you perked, lightly, plane as Kweassa posted, you'd certainly drive people out of their main rides a bit, but honestly most people can early 2-3 perks a sortie, probably enough to get them back into their ride of choice at least 75% of the time.

HBlair, a year or more ago, ran a CT setup that used this scenario and I think it was the only time I spent more time in the CT than MA.  He had Axis/Allies sides but when you upped you never knew exactly what you could face.  Would you bump into the free 190A5, the 2 point 190F8, the 3 point 190A8 or the 6 point 190D9... there were lots around of all three.  Diversity was way up, little advantages between models were worth the 2-3 points, and the huge perk "stigma" didn't matter... sure, I may shoot down your D9 in my Spit V but it likely didn't mean that much other than that I had enough points now to fly a Spit IX next sortie.  It wasn't "i got stuck in a crappy aircraft while everyone else beat me up".... honestly you were more likely to bump into someone in the lower part of the spectrum, or someone maybe slightly more capable, advantages that were pretty easy to overcome.

-Soda

[FDutchmn]

Originally posted by ramzey
som add
-c205 have big amno load for cannons and should be perked too
-p38 dunno, it big trg with huge load

NOOOOOO!  PPPuuullleeeaaassseee do not perk me favorite ride, the C.205!:D