Author Topic: Am I doing something wrong?  (Read 720 times)

Offline CoolEthan47

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5
Am I doing something wrong?
« on: May 27, 2003, 05:09:58 PM »
What the hell? I keep getting assreamed by people that either A) zoom up from 4k below me or flak that hits me from beyond visual range.  This has happened to me many times, I'll dive down to gain speed then go into a zoom climb at over 400 knots and poof magically there'll be someone on my ass. This is bs, how is this possible? There'll be no nme above me, and no dots ANYWHERE this happens so often in a furball it's ridiculous. I fly the p51d btw. Which is renowned for it's diving ability, as well as the 47.

Offline Saintaw

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
      • My blog
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2003, 05:39:05 PM »
Quote
...blah blah blah ... this happens so often in a furball ...blah blah blah ...


There's your answer, it's hard to track all enemy planes around you when in a furball.
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2003, 05:54:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by CoolEthan47
What the hell? I keep getting assreamed by people that either A) zoom up from 4k below me or flak that hits me from beyond visual range.  This has happened to me many times, I'll dive down to gain speed then go into a zoom climb at over 400 knots and poof magically there'll be someone on my ass. This is bs, how is this possible? There'll be no nme above me, and no dots ANYWHERE this happens so often in a furball it's ridiculous. I fly the p51d btw. Which is renowned for it's diving ability, as well as the 47.



You have to develop your SA (situational awarness) some more.  Just because you don't see the enemy, doesn't mean there isn't one lurking nearby waiting to pounce.

NetAces.org has some good write up on how to improve your situational awarness, maybe you should take some time out to read them.


Ack-Ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2003, 06:26:41 PM »
Read both threads, and I'm sorry to say Ethan, the other people - harsh, as their answers may be - are right. :(

 "It is your situational awareness that is in question" - first thing which comes up my mind for me too, when I read your questions.


 
 Regarding "Zoom up from 4k below"..

 This, is clearly an exaggeration. I'm sure you don't mean 4000 feet - enemy distance is in yards. So, zooming up 4k yards(12,000ft) to catch an enemy plane is out of the question(unless it is a rocket plane like the Me163B).

 From your account, what I imagine is that you find a low furball, make a few passes, extend away at high speed and find someone behind you. You see them, and since you're at high speed, you think you can out-zoom him - but he follows you through and shoots you down.

 That, is EXACTLY what some of the base-defense expert pilots have precisely tried to master - just waiting the chance to pounce someone who thinks he's all clear. I know I try to do a lot of that, too.

 No matter how fast you are, there are always many ways to reduce the distance for the attacker - if the hunter is smart, he'll use a few clever vectored rolls + power dive down to go the 'short cut', and time his drop down behind you so that he lands exactly about 300 yards behind you - even if he is much slower than you, he still has a great firing chance, because he timed his drop right. I know I can do that on a fast running Pony/La-7/Typhoon if they fly straight away. Better pilots can do that even when the enemy is maneuvering.

 So typically, it is very very probable that this is what happens:

 You missed spotting someone, or the enemy purposely stayed away from your point of attack. Then, when you go down low, or start a fight, he'll come by and observe you while you don't notice him. As you time your escape, he is already starting the hunt - you think it's all safe when you extend away from a furball at 400mph, but in truth, the dedicated hunter is dropping down on you at something like 500mph.

 You're startled by his presence, immediately break upwards and try to shake him, but the enemy is trained on you, and corners you easily, and shoots you down.

 ...

 There are many, many planes which can easily catch upto the P-51D, given albeit a slight E advantage - La-7s, Typhoons, Bf109G-10s, Fw190D-9s, Ta152H-1(this one, outdives the P-51).. etc etc.

 So don't jump down on a furball immediately when you think you have alt advantage. Observe the airspace for a few minutes, and try to calculate the numbers and factors - one especially important factor, is watching closely at the radar bar on adjacent enemy bases - when you're high, the real threat is not any of the ones below you. The real threat is the enemy that is lingering around you in a few minute's distance, or the enemy that has upped from another base, and coming this way.

 If you get used to analyzing radar behavior, I'm sure you're rate of success will start going up in notime.

Offline Saintaw

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6692
      • My blog
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2003, 01:46:10 AM »
Hey, I was not harsh, just lazy :D
Saw
Dirty, nasty furriner.

Offline gofaster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6622
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2003, 09:33:10 AM »
I love to catch Mustangs in a zoom climb when I'm flying either a Yak9U or a 109G10. Invariably, the Stangers will either go straight up or try a high-alt loop.   In the first case, it presents a nice straight flight path that allows me to ping them with the small-calibre guns until they smoke and fall down.  In the second case, I cut the corner and close the distance and drill them with the big guns.

The BVR flak bursts are probably coming from either ships or the bigger airfields.

What you might try doing is adjusting your views to cover a bigger area, so you can see those guys in your blind spot that are chasing you. :cool:

Also, remember that you may be fast, but so are a lot of other planes.

Offline Nwbie

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2022
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2003, 10:57:39 AM »
Some of the best at this furball pickoffs are Steve and Shane, if you see a furball or are in a furball and see a pony or a La7 sitting on the outskirts circling, get ready for a quick pass as you break off from a kill or a miss( mostly a miss for me )
Been picked clean many a time by Steve or his wingy using this tactic, oh by the way - he is a bastage......

:)



NwBie
Skuzzy-- "Facts are slowly becoming irrelevant in favor of the nutjob."

Offline Dawvgrid

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 436
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2003, 10:58:56 AM »
somehow newcomers(newbies;) ) tend to fly the p51,since it's claimed to be the best pistonfighter of ww2.
But it really isn't the plane,but the pilot that dictates the outcome of the fight,,,,in most cases.

Offline OverBkil

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 147
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2003, 01:05:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 That, is EXACTLY what some of the base-defense expert pilots have precisely tried to master - just waiting the chance to pounce someone who thinks he's all clear. I know I try to do a lot of that, too.


I'm gettin' most of my fighter kills that way, but that doesn't mean I'm an expert. No way! I just have to do it to get some kills cuz I suck in turn-fighting. :D

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2003, 01:10:10 PM »
Ethan,  Well you've picked a great ride to BnZ in a furball. There are so many factors that could explain what is happening to you, some very wise folk have already given you some good advise.

There is so much more to hunting in a furball with your pony that I won't get into it here.  I'm not sure what flight sim you hail from but surviving a furball in your pony here in AH is just not that easy.

I mean, getting 3 or 4 kills is simple enough.. you have to make good decisions in order to get those kills and survive.  There are some very clever pilots in here who will anticipate your zoom and be there waiting for you.  AKAK and K are good examples of this.  If you are going up at 400 kias to a waiting bad guy.. that speed will avail you little.  Gofaster has a method too, although this won't work against a pony pilot who knows how to deal with it.

I fly the pony 95% of the time, if you're rook maybe we could fly a flight or two. i'm not saying I'm an expert, but I probably know a tidbit or two that could help you.

"Invariably, the Stangers will either go straight up or try a high-alt loop."  Gofaster, these moves are really bad ideas with anyone close to you.  Spiral, pony, spiral!!!

LOL Nwbie... it's true.. I am a bastage
« Last Edit: May 28, 2003, 01:57:52 PM by Steve »
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline Tabasco

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 202
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2003, 01:15:14 PM »
Hit Alt+R as soon as you come in contact with the enemy.  I've been jumped by "magically" appearing fighters too, but then a review of the film takes all the mystery out of it.  Just didn't see him.  :)

Ethan also mentioned flak from a source that seems to be out of visual range.  Usually happens when there's a CV group somewhere below, although I've encountered flak - ACCURATE flak - from ships nearly out of visual range that are a speck near the horizon, which seems rediculous.

Offline gofaster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6622
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2003, 02:11:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Steve

"Invariably, the Stangers will either go straight up or try a high-alt loop."  Gofaster, these moves are really bad ideas with anyone close to you.  Spiral, pony, spiral!!!


And so few of them do, Steve, so few of them do.

Which is why my Yak and G10 scores are going so well. ;)

I've been flying the P51B since Memorial Day.  Got 6 kills in 1 flight last night until I ran into Plumbit squatting in the tailgunner position of a B-17.  :(  The B-stang isn't too shabby.  I'd rather have the C-stang with a Malcolm hood, though.  It would make it easier to visually track D-Stangs on their pull-out.

Offline najdorf

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 267
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2003, 04:04:59 PM »
You also have to realize that an nme who is directly behind and below you will be blocked from your view by your fuselage.  So if you are flying straight, and you have a bad guy with a slight E ad, you wont see him, you'll just end up in the tower.  Like others have said, just because you're doing 400, doesn't mean others arent faster, zooming up your blind spot.

A spiral climb, like Steve suggested will help you see these folks.

And as some others have suggested, climbing at a high angle or looping in the middle of a fair sized furball are real good ways to get yourself killed quick.  I only use that maneuver when all nme's are below or I only have one enemy and he's below me and I am looking to maintion my ad while blowing speed so I can get a guns solution on him.

Offline Steve

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6728
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2003, 03:26:54 AM »
Ethan, here is a screen shot from the end of a mission I flew tonight.  It was furball stuff... great action.


Getting kills in the pony is a blast!
I'll send you the film if ya want, but didn't start filming until after kill 9.

I ran into this guy named Taki... man can that guy fly a niki.  I got him once but watched him in several fights.... man he's good.

Oh, not a single vulch.. but I'm very sneaky  
« Last Edit: May 30, 2003, 03:47:05 AM by Steve »
Member: Hot Soup Mafia - Cream of Myshroom
Army of Muppets  Yes, my ingame name is Steve

Offline gofaster

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6622
Am I doing something wrong?
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2003, 08:45:17 AM »
P51D?  Real men fly P-51Bs. :cool:

You're right. Taki is deadly in a N1K2.  I had the (mis)fortune of staying home from work sick and logging on to AH just to break the tedium of daytime tv court shows ("I loaned my brother/sister/mother/son/cousin money and they won't pay me back!" over and over and over...) and the guy had my number down pat.  He knows the N1K2, but its still just a N1K2.  The couple of times we met in stangs or 262s we ended up HO'ing each other to death because neither one of us wanted to break off from the shot.  He even invited me to the DA but I'm not really much of a duelist. He's very patient in establishing his position, whereas I just go in shooting from the hip and hope something lands.  A couple of days of getting smacked down by him taught me the value of patience.  And right about then is when my Yak9U and 109G10 scores started to improve.  His squadmate is also pretty good in a N1k (Yancya or Yancyan or something like that).