Author Topic: another thread about handguns  (Read 1135 times)

Offline davidpt40

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2003, 03:59:27 AM »
Here is a good test to see if you are using the 'right' handgun.  Get your best friend to sit on a stool.  Place an apple on his head and a cigarette in his mouth.  Next, put on a pair of roller-skates.  Skate about 15 feet away from him.  Start spinning in circles with the skates on, and try to shoot the apple off your friends head and the cigarette out of his mouth.  

I do this test all the time but last time I had been drinking and went to buy a new shotgun.  Lets just say I got the apple and cigarette with 1 shot, but now I need a new best friend.

Offline Emptygun26

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2003, 04:03:59 AM »
Glocks are nice, it is what I carry just about everyday. As for the Beretta 92 9mm, it is a big gun, but it can be concealed. For years we had them in MPI and CID rolls, they are big and hvy, but they still can be worn that way. Now we have the Sig P228 9mm (M11) and the Sig P226 9mm tactical (M13) for our MPI, CID, and SRT agents in the military.
 As for taurus, I would hardly call it a Beretta knock off, if anything in some area it out preforms the Beretta. Also it might not hurt to look into a used gun. This way you can get a high quality side-arm with out breaking the bank. A used Glock 19 9mm, 17 9mm, or 26 9mm, can be found in the 350$-450$ range.
 I am how ever a glock fanatic. I love them, there not pretty, they are no frills business weapons. They have one job to do, and they do it well. There will be ppl that say H&Ks are better, and they are nice pistols, they can run right up there with the glock. In fact I would have to issues with using one..... but why pay $800 for a pistol that works the same as a 500$ pistol? Becuz its looks better you say? Well then you know nothing about self defence pistols. Looks should be very low on the list of needs.
 If anything buy the Glock, and spend the money on things like extra mags, extended slide releases, exstended mag releases, mag well plugs, Perce grip mag extentions, FOBUS holster, and mag holder. Then spend the extra 75$ left over to get the slide done in a satin finish. Now you have a Glock that is custom carry ready, and will out perform an H&K easly, somthing the Glock did just fine in its stock setting.
 Even then the bottom line is carry what you like, carry what works. If its stupid but it works, its not stupid. I have seen things like ruber bands wraped around grips, skate board tape on grips. Little tricks ppl have learned. Find somthing that works for you and stick with it.
 In my school I have found that I have to watch what I do and say, as well what I carry. So when I am teaching a class, or whenever I am at the range, you will hardly ever see me wear the same gun everyday. Some ppl say that is a mistake, that in a shooting I may freeze and wont know how to operate the gun correctly. Well what I say to that, two shootings later I am still alive. I spend 15 hours a day at the range, partly becuz I own it, and partly becuz I enjoy it. I fire my weapon or a firearm atleast four maybe five times a day.
 What I am trying to point out, once you have selected your firearm you MUST train with it. Take the weapon to the range after you buy it, fire 500  target rnds or so though it. Get use to the feel of it, how it shoots, how it recoils, what o'clock postistion is the sight picture. The load it up with no less than 200 rnds of the defensive amm you are going to load in it. Get a feel for how it shoots with the new ammo. Guns perform diffent with diffrent types of ammo. You should do this when ever you change ammo types.
Then practice drawing from the holster. Do this at home at the range. You can use snap caps. This will help you to draw faster. Try drawing your weapon from under lots of clothes, just like you would in the winter, practice drawing your weapon with gloves on. Have a friend  help you with an UNLOADED AND SAFE WEAPON, OR TRAINING GUN IE TOY GUN. to practice break away drills where someone is right next to you, and you need to break away to draw and fire, practice contact shots, some weapons wont fire simply becuz they slide is being pushed back when the barrel is placed on someones body. So you will need to push the back of the slide foward while pulling your firing hand back to get off the contact shot.
 Practice, practice, practice. It is the key. It becomes more and more easy as you go. At the point of you practicing this much, you will feel secure even with somthing as small as a .22. Exsample.
 One night I was in the office, we had close but one of the other owners and myself were there. We were going to hang out there all night, repair the back stop and clean. (Mostly sit on our tulips eat pizza and watch DVDs in the back offce.) Our range is on the corner of a not so good part of town. I had locked my firearm up in my truck outback. We heard glass break, we had not installed the bars on the windows yet, the lights were out up front. Jarred had his Taurus PT100 .40 (basicly a Berreta 96 .40) I had nothing, in the drawer next to me was a little .38 Darrenger. I grabed that. Him and I cleared the whole building with me using a darrenger. Turns out the glass we heard break was a light in the range, that fell down after being shot earler in the day.
 The next day Joel (Jarreds brother and the other co- owner) asked me if I would have been able to hit someone with it. So I went out on the range, fired both shots at 50Ft and nailed pretty much dead center. This comes from practice. I am was not born with a gift. Anyone can shoot like that. You just need to practice.Click here

Offline hyena426

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2003, 04:38:42 AM »
pistols are fun,,i got a old colt dragoon cap and ball that is a ton of fun,,and still considerd the 5th most powerfull production pistol in the world,,not too shabby for a gun made in the 1850's,,colt walker cap and ball is more powerfull than a 44mag

berretta's a good gun,,i like the 40cal model my self,,but if you want the most balanced pistol in the world,,its the luger 9mm hands down,,could shoot 5,000 rounds with out failing just like the colt 1911<~~only reason usa took the colt instead,,was because we didnt wanna pay germany for gun rights,,,just like the famous 1903 mauser knock off,,lol

for short barrels,,they cost about 300bucks too 600 for a nice one in fireing order,,longer barrled models cost much more,,plus its still legal to stick a 32 round snail drum and gun stock on them,,now wouldnt that be fun?,,and for speed firing,,its one of the fastest pistol in the world,,even some rare experimental models were made fully auto

all counts what you want in a gun,,9mm good controllible rounds,,357 loud powerfull and very shootible<~~seen a 6 year old kid shoot one and it was a revolver,,40cal is fun,,,,,i dont think i could settle for just one kinda pistol,,,,,there are so many good ones out there,,,,i liked every round i have ever shot,,from 22 cal all up too 44 ,,50cal,,they all got there good points and bad,, ,,magum reseach make the biggest baddest pistol right now,,its a 45.70 revolver,,i havent shot it yet,,but i bet it kicks like a monster
« Last Edit: June 03, 2003, 04:41:38 AM by hyena426 »

Offline Emptygun26

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2003, 05:11:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hyena426
but if you want the most balanced pistol in the world,,its the luger 9mm hands down,,could shoot 5,000 rounds with out failing just like the colt 1911<~~only reason usa took the colt instead,,was because we didnt wanna pay germany for gun rights,,,just like the famous 1903 mauser knock off,,lol


 Someone here doesnt know there history. The Luger was so torn up from the US Army trials that it was thrown away. The luger has a higher cycle rate than the Colt 1911. Plus the 9mm rnd doesnt pack much punch. There are Colt 1911s that have been stored for 60 years loaded, that fired each of the bullets that were put it in. The reasion for this is colts, heavy slide, soft springs, this means a much lower cycle rate. There is no way a luger could do the same thing. You would have a failure to feed on each round.
 Also the Colt is far more rugged than the Luger, there is one Colt 1911 that I know of, made by the Rand Corp that is still serving with the US Army today. This 1911 has seen combat since 1942 where it served in the Pac theater. It saw action in Korea, VN, Panama, and Desert Storm. It now sits at Ft Bragg in storage. Still in the Armys invtory, still shooting. Bottom line the .45 Colt 1911 was picked not becuz they didnt want to pay germany rights. It was picked becuz it was a far better pistol. Even today in the world of plastics, and hi-tech firearms the old classic 1911 is still the number one choice of concealed carry buyers.

Offline lazs2

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2003, 08:50:50 AM »
colt walker is not as powerfull as a 44 mag... even with a full load of ffg it will not push its 130-140 grain ball out much past 1200 fps.. A 44 mag will do this with a 240 grain slug.  you do the math.

revolvers are very good at instinctive shooting and shooting under pressure.  Unless you just forget to load it you will get a shot off... if you have five missfires in a row you will get a shot off.
lazs

Offline lazs2

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2003, 08:54:18 AM »
oh... lugers are extremely accurate but comlex and fire a weak 9mm round.. they are extremely prone to jams and very magazine and ammo sensitive..  they are also dangerous to carry in any way that is usable.   the few "45 lugers" that were made were junk.  the first one could not be made to fire after being dropped in the mud and the second one blew out a breechbolt... I have done that wih a 9mm luger and hot rounds.  a very fragile arm... the P38 was superior but still a weak little 9mm.
lazs

Offline Maverick

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2003, 09:41:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
Show me ANY human that can remain standing after a solid hit from a .45 and I will run screaming like a little girl.(After I empty the clip)


rpm,

Read the part of my post that you quoted. This time read it for COMPREHENSION. Then please show me where I used the term "solid hit". :rolleyes:
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Offline Emptygun26

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2003, 10:59:54 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by rpm371
Show me ANY human that can remain standing after a solid hit from a .45 and I will run screaming like a little girl.(After I empty the clip)



 You lack the understanding of balistics, and wounding. A human is not killed by the bullet its self, rather the loss of blood, which cuts of oxgen to the brain, making a person pass out and die. So a person can take four or five hits from a .45 and still come at you. Its the shock and loss of blood that stops someone from comming. Bottom line, the bigger wound cavity a round makes, the more blood is lost, and the sooner the fight is stoped.

Offline lazs2

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2003, 11:16:44 AM »
wrong again... very few people die from loss of blood in a gunshot wound..  the shock wave and destruction of vital organs is the cause of death.   secondary wounds caused by shattered bones and their resultant damage to internal organs.  
lazs

Offline bounder

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2003, 11:33:15 AM »
Yeah, its the hydrostatic shock that kills you.

if you want to stop people near instantly, a poison tipped dart from an airgun will generally do a better (and quieter) job. better yet, a tazer.

but if it's a handgun you're after,


I like it.

Offline hawk220

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2003, 11:53:33 AM »
ooooh the HK P7

I'd hack off a nut to get my hands on a P7 M13.  I think the state patrol of Maryland or Vermont issues these as side arms.

Offline Erlkonig

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2003, 12:24:46 PM »
All wrong.  What really kills you from a gunshot wound is lead poisoning.  Caliber matters some, but the real factor is the LCC (lead content coefficient) of the bullet you're using.  Bigger bullets tend to have a bigger LCC.  It's true, I read it in "Guns & Ammo."  Or maybe it was "Soldier of Fortune."

Offline medicboy

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2003, 12:38:59 PM »
Personaly I like my Ruger p89, 9mm.  Has 15 shots, points just as naturaly as my finger and no recoil, so follow up shots are much easier than the "bouncy" 45.

On stopping power, youre right   Its kenetic energy that "stops" people.  If you waited for someone to bleed out you would be there for 30-40 min.  You get kenetic energy by this formula:

KE=mass(velocity squared)   SO you get a huge increase in energy with a small increase in velocity and not much of a pay off with more weight.  If you look at the ft lbs produced by average self defence loads there is very little difference between the 9mm, 40 cal, 45, and the 357 sig.  You get a slight advantage with the 357 mag (basicaly a 9mm bullet at higher velocity)   Why do you think the 223 round is so effective, very small bullet, light weight, very high velocity.  Also the type of bullet makes a huge difference.   Don't go with cheap, full metal jacket ammo for self defence.  Spend the money and get the premium "self defence" bullets.  

I have see many people shot in my career as a medic, the #1 factor reguarding effective use of a hand gun is shot placement.  The caliber doesn't matter much as long as it is 9mm and above.  Shoot about 1000 rounds a year to stay "current" with you gun, and more if you are just begining and clean it well after each use.  An unreliable gun is worse than no gun, because once you pull out a gun you force the "bad guy" to make a decision.  If he chooses to fight and your gun jams or missfires, you are going to die.

Offline Emptygun26

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2003, 12:51:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
wrong again... very few people die from loss of blood in a gunshot wound..  the shock wave and destruction of vital organs is the cause of death.   secondary wounds caused by shattered bones and their resultant damage to internal organs.  
lazs


Quote
Yeah, its the hydrostatic shock that kills you.


Quote
All wrong. What really kills you from a gunshot wound is lead poisoning. Caliber matters some, but the real factor is the LCC (lead content coefficient) of the bullet you're using. Bigger bullets tend to have a bigger LCC. It's true, I read it in "Guns & Ammo." Or maybe it was "Soldier of Fortune."


 It always amazes me how little ppl really know about ballstics.
Let me point you guys here. This is the true awser. If you say I am wrong then you are also saying 30 years of work done by these other guys is wrong too. This is where I get my knowlege, not from "Guns & Ammo".
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Offline Scootter

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another thread about handguns
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2003, 01:06:34 PM »
Hydrostatic shock???

nope

"In the case of low-velocity missiles, e.g., pistol bullets, the bullet produces a direct path of destruction with very little lateral extension within the surrounding tissues. Only a small temporary cavity is produced. To cause significant injuries to a structure, a pistol bullet must strike that structure directly. The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote injuries produced by a high velocity rifle bullet."20


Knock down power!!??


nope



A bullet simply cannot knock a man down. If it had the energy to do so, then equal energy would be applied against the shooter and he too would be knocked down. This is simple physics, and has been known for hundreds of years.31 The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.32 Tissue damage is the only physical link to incapacitation within the desired time frame, i.e., instantaneously.


Why I use my .45 with heavy pills!!

It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use.36

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." 42,43 Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.44




from

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm



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