Author Topic: Roll rates  (Read 2677 times)

Offline Pyro

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Roll rates
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2003, 11:57:59 AM »
Hi Neil,

I got the report.  Thanks a bunch, that's a really great contribution.

Offline OIO

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Roll rates
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2003, 12:23:17 PM »
yay now pork the 109 ;)

Offline wrag

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Roll rates
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2003, 01:02:38 AM »
Don't know if this site will come through very well but it contains charts reportedly from Lockheed

http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/P-38-3.html

If it doesn't come through let me know and i'll try and post the charts.

Oh it contains a ROLL RATE CHART!!!!!
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline joeblogs

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for the ignorant
« Reply #63 on: June 04, 2003, 10:42:32 PM »
Can you provide a little more bibliographic information.  I have no idea what this report is and how I can locate it.  A web search for RAE (at least I know what RAE is) got me nowhere

Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Neil,
You can help Pyro better than me! Another interesting RAE report at PRO is DSIR 23/13030. It's a quite long and theoretical report on aileron characters during maneuvers and probably something Pyro is looking for.

Somekind of study on flying characters of the Bf 109 (including aileron data) might come out before end of the year ;)

gripen

Offline Czpetr

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Roll rates
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2003, 01:20:35 AM »
P36, P40, Spit and Hurri Rollrate comparison:
http://members.tripod.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/usaaf/rollrate.pdf

Link comes from this interesting page:
http://mitglied.lycos.de/luftwaffe1/index2.html

Offline Neil Stirling1

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Roll rates
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2003, 01:26:34 AM »
Joeblogs,
  http://www.pro.gov.uk/  
then click on catalogues and then then online catalogues procat, then click search or enter reference in the top r/h box.
Neil.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2003, 01:31:56 AM by Neil Stirling1 »

Offline Angus

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Roll rates
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2003, 04:34:08 AM »
Here is a goodie for you:
"I have mentioned how badly I felt about the aierons of the Spitfire at the time of the Battle of Britain. In October 1940 I flew a captured 109E; to my surprise and relief I found the aileron control of the German fighter every bit as bad - if not worse - at high speeds as that of the Spitfire I and II with fabric covered ailerons. They were very good at low and medium speed, but 400 mph and above they were almost immovable. I thought the  Me 109E performed well, particularly on the climb at altitude, and that it had good stalling characteristics under g except that the leading edge slats kept snapping in and out. But it had no rudder trimmer - which gave it a heavy footload at high speed - while the cockpit, the canopy and the rearward vision were much worse than in the Spitfire. Had I flown the Me 109 earlier, I would have treated the aeroplane with less respect in combat"
(Jeffrey Quill, RAF test pilot)

BTW, this thread never mentions the a6m. Now if AH has an error in roll rate and high speed performance, there it really is!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline joeblogs

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Thanks!
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2003, 02:02:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Neil Stirling1
Joeblogs,
  http://www.pro.gov.uk/  
then click on catalogues and then then online catalogues procat, then click search or enter reference in the top r/h box.
Neil.

Offline icemaw

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Roll rates
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2003, 02:09:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus


BTW, this thread never mentions the a6m. Now if AH has an error in roll rate and high speed performance, there it really is!


 The zeek rolls at high speeds? I think the moon has a faster roll rate than the zeek at speed
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Offline Tilt

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Lavochkin roll rates
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2003, 06:08:01 PM »
I have never found any actual test data with respect to Lavochkin roll rates.

Obviously some crude assumptions can be made when looking at the wing profile, the size, position and total deflection of the aelerons

Few pilots flew both western and Russian planes and the only anecdotal evidence I have is from those Czech pilots who left their RAF Spitfires in January 44 to fly La5FN's later in July of the same year.

By comparison the Lavochkins instrumentation suffers heavy critique (no artificial horizon no gryo compass etc etc) but apart from its bounce during landing the Czech pilots hailed the la5Fn as highly (excellent) manouverable in all plains and a delight to fly.

This is hardly a description of roll rate but one would expect a roll rate at least superior to the Spit  from such a comment.

It is possible that the Czechs flew later La5FN's which were fitted with all metal (steel /dural composite) aelerons with improved linkages to the same. But I would doubt it. Indeed these were newly trialed on the La7 prototype in March 44 and fitted to the first la7's in production in  early May. It would be surprising if the Czechs were given brand new La5FN's after their initial training.

I mention this because the new design of aeleron reduced total aeleron  weight by 100kgs and radically reduced the stick forces required between the former la5Fn (wood /metal/cloth composite aeleron) and the later la7. The la5fn had a two handed   (Spitfire type) control stick whilst the La 7 had a single handed  (messerschmidt type ) joy stick. Hence from a pilots perspective stick forces during roll were significantly reduced during the development of the la7.

In summary this  (admitedly very anecdotal evidence) would support the view that the La5Fn rolled at least as well as the Spitfire  during normal combat manouvering and that the  reduced stick forces of the la7 allowed the pilot to roll the  la7 better still where the stick forces of the la5Fn were found to be restrictive. (presumably at higher speeds)

The question would be which Spitfire?  

One of the pilots to give this account was Frantisek Faitjl DFC who was a squadron leader in 313 squadron.......

http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/bio/fajtl.html


You will note that until his departure this squadron flew latterly the Mk V (C & B) with a few Mk VII.

http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/units/313.html


If as this page suggests Faijtl is still alive then he may be an invaluable source of comparitive data few persons have experienced he also flew the la7 after  the war.

The other pilot to compare the two aircraft was W/O Ladislav Valousek who flew with 310 Squadron

http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/units/staff310.html

They had similar experience of the MkV ( C & B ) with some HF Mk VI

http://cz-raf.hyperlink.cz/units/310.html
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