can we have BoB scenario

[Swoop]

Actually I kinda like the Star Wars idea.....although it'd have to be 262s as X-Wings and 163s as tie fighters.
 

[Gremlin]

I think the idea of a scenario outside of ww2 is a groundbreaking idea.  Kadesh will be a groundbreaking scenario IMHO.  I for one would much rather see events moving forward with new ideas than re-running the same thing over and over.  I'm all for re-running BoB at somepoint but not at the expense of progress.

[ramzey]

Originally posted by Gremlin
I think the idea of a scenario outside of ww2 is a groundbreaking idea.  Kadesh will be a groundbreaking scenario IMHO.  I for one would much rather see events moving forward with new ideas than re-running the same thing over and over.  I'm all for re-running BoB at somepoint but not at the expense of progress.

Its same ideas for "old" players, not for new one who come in to AH all the time.  How many old layers left here? how many looking for something "new"? Old not mean bad. Many never even touch this scenario and im sure most of "old" players will enjoy "old" fasion scenario. As Guadalcanal was. Where is A2A combat only without all this new "improvements".

ramzey

[ghostdancer]

First off, Ramzey the original point of my post was about showing respect to people. You can agree to disagree about something and do it in a respectful way. I pointed out that your comments could be viewed disrectfully by Artik who has come up with the reasoning behind the event and is doing the work for the event. Which you glibly say should be cancelled.
 
Now as to your specific points:
 
[list=1]
 

• If i create moon terrain, and design 4 frames of event betwen empire and rebel can we play star wars?

With me163 as X- wing and262 as tie fighter?[/i]
 
You are trying to compare apples and oranges here in my opinion. The terrain created is an historical terrain. Not a fantasy terrain and can be used for other Eastern Mediterrean events. The moon can't.
 
You don't like plane substitutions but until HTC models all planes of WWII its a fact of life for events to have to substitute planes. This was the case with AW, and WB and has been a fact of life since the mid 1990s. It has also been pointed out BoB needs some plane substitution of replacing a plane with the closest equivalent within reason.

This event would substitute the 262 for the Gloster Meteror .. both of which saw action in WWII. And then use other WWII aircraft that was used in this "action."
 
Remember many nations used WWII aircraft after WWII in their conflicts with each other because they could not afford to field top of the line aircraft (Jets, etc.). You have an incident earlier than Kadesh where Egyptian Spitfires and Israeli 109s fought each other. You have Honduras and Guatemala fighting each other in P51s and F4Us, I am sure there are others. So Artik proposed an event that offered something different within a workable frame work of planes.
 
The Tie-Fighter and X-Wing can not be related to the Prop driven aircraft in anyway. While the 262 is a close comparison for the Meteor.
 
Some people will have a problem with the plane subsistution, others won't.
 

• It is fine that you see no place for this as a full design scenario for one full month. That is your opinion. Others are of the opinion that it does have value and does offer something different. Remember you speak for yourself and your opinion is just yours. Anything else is an opinion and generalization on what other players might or might not think on the subject.
   
  
• As for your right to complain as a player. What are you complaining about? How have you been wronged or something done against you?

 
You have a right to offer an opinion, which is listened to with respect and given as much weight as any other players opinion. Nobody is forcing you participate in the event. The event is not knocking another event out of the loop or delaying it.

Since the event has not even run yet their is not anything specific which has been done to you for you to complain about.
 
What your statement can be seen as is not offering your opinion but actually proposing an event be cancelled because you don't like the idea for it. This is what can be seen as not respectful. Artik and others have already put alot of work into the event after they convinced others to give it a shot. A glib comment saying cancel something they have already put work into and convinced others that it is worthwhile to try can be viewed as denigrating to them.
 

• Lastly as for which event pulls more numbers. This is not a hurdle for whether an event should be run or not. Will BoB of have more people sign up for it. Most probably yes. Does this mean it is more valid or more worthwhile no. To say yes, because BoB is better known is to say that most of the battles on the Eastern Front between the Germans and Russians are not as important as the ones fought between the British/Americans vs the Germans because the British/American Battles are better known to most players than most of their Eastern Front counterparts.

 
Also we don't insist on people lining up a certain amount of people who commit to play in the scenario before we flesh it out (design it) and put it into the schedule.

[/list]

[lucull]

I'm sure everybody appreciates the work of artik and his crew in making the terrain, the skins, the design, ... So does ramzey.

It's great to see, that CM team is supporting them and giving them the time and place to run it as one of the few big scenarios in the year. It's a great honour and I hope many people will enjoy it. Good to see how you (CMs) fight for player runned events.

This event will cross the line and enter the post WW2 time and it's battles.
Personally, I don't see the need for it (there were mor than enough battles in WW2) and more than that I don't like it in general crossing that line. I'm sure, I can write that without hurting artik or disrespecting his work. He has my best wishes, that it will be a success.

Anyway, I should be able to ask: "I like BoB, can we have it again?" and argue to see it (re-)run without being slagged by a CM.

BOT, this thread is about the question of having a BoB scenario again, because, I bet most people agree, it is one of the best we ever had and it attracts most people. This is definetly something important as the prime directive for every event is "The players have fun!"

The only question is IMO, is there a demand for another BoB?
Anything else is offtopic and it's not the place for showing antipathy against people.

[ghostdancer]

Lucull the idea of running BoB was not slagged by CMs nor was Ramzey slagged or others slagged for the idea and advocating it. Actually there was a discussion of just doing a re-run of the event or should the rules be revised from the last one.

Ramzey asked what was in the works and Tilt responded by saying Okinawa, Kadesh, Rhur, and now Kurland. Ramzey stated he was not interested in Kadesh and that plane substitute were pitiful.

Only possible negative I see about BoB is Swoop saying that CAP was going to get around to doing it again. Which Ramzey pointed out correctly is not the same thing as a "scenario" version.

Also you had Seeker post a remark about Ramzey not remember rules and setup. Implying that Ramzey is a "rules lawyer" type of player followed by a happy face to try to indicate he was poking fun.

Where the discussion turned was on the possibility that instead of advocating a BoB be run again that instead it turned to scrap other events and replace them with BoB.

Up until that point the thread was "I like BoB, can we have it again?" and argue to see it (re-)run without being slagged by a CM. No CM slagged Ramzey or any other such as Esme in their discussion (except where possibly noted above). However, the last several postings did stem from the fact that Ramzey said "so, lets forget Kadesh and play BoB." Possibly being interpreting that he is saying/advocating scrapping Kadesh and run BoB instead. Instead of saying lets fine another time open slot to run BoB.

The following post were in response to that one line. I understand that you and he have no interest in Kadesh, need for it or for any similiar type of event that is not actually based in WW2 time frame. That is your opinion and fine. Whether it is the majority opinion of others players only time will tell by actual player turnout for the event.

Antipathy is not being shown toward anyone particular person but the appropriate concern over the possibility of one person advocating scrapping another event because they do not like an idea.

If the tables were turned and Artik had posted forget Ramzey's event and do BoB instead. Artik would have been the recipient of the post.

As for demand for BoB. Yes, there is demand. Now there are two options the CM runs it again and has to work it into its schedule .. which means 2004 or a player(s) put it together (working with some CM advisers) to have it run earlier (as long as an open slot can be found for it that does not unduly conflict with something else).

[artik]

BoB is great event and I think it worst to run it in AH. But the point I want to tell lets make something different from well known BoB. And do WWII events too. I think every opinion has right for being. I didn't tell Forget this WWII, I just making a project that might be very different from our events.
And lets make BoB too but without replacing one event with other. I'm shoure that me and ramzey can understand each other. Lets respect our opinions and all would be all right.

Best wishes for making BoB, Ramzey

[Flossy]

The thing is, we do need some variety.... imagine if we did run BoB every year.... maybe Midway every year and a couple of others.  That wouldn't leave much time for anything new and we would be seeing posts from players complaining they are bored with the same scenarios year after year!  

Artik has put a great deal of work into his scenario, including creating his own terrain and we have already agreed to include it in the scenario schedule.  The fact that it is a post WW2 scenario doesn't matter in the least - if it is possible to run such a scenario, then why not?  I remember one of my favourite scenarios in AW was Korea51 - I was apprehensive about it, but ended up enjoying it immensely, with the jets just adding to the fun (especially when I caused an F86 to auger when it attacked my B17 ).

To suggest scrapping an event that several people have already put a lot of work into is not only disrespectful but extremely inconsiderate.

I am sure we will run BoB again at some point in the future, but not at the expense of another scenario already well underway in the planning.

[ghostdancer]

CM's have two scenarios in the works:

[list=1]

• Okinawa (runs on saturdays)
• Rhur (runs on saturdays)

Player (non-CM Sponsored) scenarios in the works:

[list=1]

• Kadesh (runs on saturdays)
• Kurland (????)

So we can discuss with Tilt to run a BoB scenario but it would be slotted into the CM work table for after Okinawa and the Rhur. If its run on Saturdays that would put it after Okinawa, Rhurh, Kadesh.

It could run on sundays .. we can put Sunday Squad Ops on hold for 4 weeks. So that could allow it to run sooner but if its CM event then we have to wait till they finish Rhur and Okinawa. If a player group wants to put together with the CMs it possibly could be run sooner.

Will have to chat with Tilt and Flossy about things.

Plus, we do have another player scenario in the wings. So actually from now to May 2004 we are looking at 5 scenarios. Almost 1 every 2 months.

[Kisters]

Personally i support Kadesh scenario.
I had my doubts about non WW2 events in the past, but after reading the rules and knowing how much work it involves, i would love to give it a try.
And yeah, BoB would also be great, i got to fly 109e4s but damn brit air controllers kept us away from all spits! i saw no action!.
We won, but still, i want a rerun!

[artik]

To all CMs
Than You  for Your support.
I hope my Kadesh evet will not dissapoint you.

looking forward

[Esme]

Originally posted by Swoop
....(the terrain team just needs time and a list of changes needed).....

....
Now on to more important subjects:  What kinda scotch are you drinking?

Want a list of suggestions (with locations)  for terrain updates?

As for the Scotch, I confess to being  Bells drinker.  Yes, I now that this makes me a complete peasant, but I've simply not had chance to become a connesiuer (sp?) yet. Any reccomends? :-)

Esme

[Sarge1]

D217
One of the most versatile and useful bomber designs the Germans put into production after the war started the Dornier Do 217 remedied the shortcomings of the Do 17 while greatly advancing the design in all areas. The first flight of the Dornier Do 217 came in August 1938 - although it crashed just a month later, killing both crewmen. Development continued and the plane entered service in 1940 eventually seeing service as a night fighter, torpedo, anti-shipping, and reconnaissance aircraft and guided missile carrier as well as level bomber.

Early in 1943 Do 217s were training and perfecting guided bomb and missile attacks against naval targets. The first operational

As a bomber the Dornier Do 17 was perhaps the least effective of the bomber types used in the Battle of Britain, excluding of course the Ju 87 Stuka. Although well liked by its crews and possesing good flying characteristics the plane was slow and carried a modest bombload. Also the Dornier Do 17 could not take as much battle damage as the He 111 or the Ju 88 bombers.

JU88
The RLM (German air ministry) issued a requirement for a Schnellbomber (fast bomber) in 1935. This led to the Junkers Ju 88, destined to be produced in greater numbers than all other German bombers combined. Total production reached 14,780 including 104 prototypes.

The Ju 88 V1 (prototype 1) first took to the air on 21 Dec 1936. More than half of the total production of Junker Ju 88s were A-series versions.

Originally designed for level and dive bombing the design proved capable of much more, eventually including long-range escort, night-fighting, intrudering, tank busting, anti-ship, anti-sub, supply dropping, towing, training, transport reconnaisance, torpedo plane, close support, pathfinding and pilotless missile attack.

he111 heavy bomber
Although up to 4,410lbs (2000kg) of bombs could be carried the unique arrangement for storage in the internal bomb bay limited the maximum bomb size to a 551 lb (250 kg) bomb, eight of which could be stored tail down, the individual bombs tumbling wildly upon release. Production exceeded 7300 and for lack of a suitable replacement the Heinkel He 111 made up the bulk of German "heavy" bomber forces for almost the entire war. The HE 111H-6 was the most produced version.


We have the 88 and the 87 if LW wanted any more bombers they would take the DO217 and HE111



seems like this bomber sucked so why would you want it

As a bomber the Dornier Do 17 was perhaps the least effective of the bomber types used in the Battle of Britain, excluding of course the Ju 87 Stuka. Although well liked by its crews and possesing good flying characteristics the plane was slow and carried a modest bombload. Also the Dornier Do 17 could not take as much battle damage as the He 111 or the Ju 88 bomber

German bombers

[Sarge1]

heres a bomber we could really use. since all sides can use a bomber


B29
Four 2,200 hp Wright R-3350 radials
364 mph/25,000 ft
max bomb load  20,000 lb
Load out
4 X 4,000 lb
8 X 2,000 lb
12 X 1,600 lb
40 X 500 lb

4 remote control turrets w/ twin .50 in machine guns
2 X .50 in machine guns in tail



at 364 MPH we would see just a few fighters after this one two would have to be 163, 262 and not many others are fast enough to get to it. i think there arent that many

would make a lot better perk bomber than the 234

[Seeker]

And the B29 has what to do with the Battle of Britain??