Author Topic: No Firefighter Statue. . . .  (Read 1038 times)

Offline midnight Target

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2003, 02:56:06 PM »
Quote
And there is the declaration of the organizations of World Trade Center families-of-victims that there should not be a statue of the firemen at the WTC memorial site.


Where is this declaration? (I sense a straw man).

Offline midnight Target

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2003, 03:15:40 PM »
From a December 2001 meeting of the various focus groups.


Families of Victims - felt that the memorial should be a place of remembering, without being somber. Civilian and uniformed victims should be treated equally and listed in a single alphabetical list. It should capture the complex spectrum of feelings experienced during the aftermath of the tragedy and celebrate "people helping people" and the strength of the human spirit. The memorial should encourage a range of emotions, from mourning and loss to the pride and celebration of the city coming together. They also felt that the memorial on the WTC site should include the victims of the flights as well as those killed at the Pentagon, making ita truly national memorial that addresses the three locations-New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from http://nynv.aiga.org/pdfs/NYNV_MemorialsBriefingBook.pdf
« Last Edit: June 12, 2003, 03:18:06 PM by midnight Target »

Offline Tracer-15

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2003, 03:20:46 PM »
being a junior fireifighter myself........we have a 9/11 memorial in my town.......a bell....mounted on steel from the WTC.......ide say put up a statue of a cop and a firefighter

Offline anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2003, 04:35:56 PM »
what kind of person would ever be against a statue for fallen firefighters? so they have two memorials? whats the big ****ing deal? firemen and cops chose going into harms way for people they will never know for a living. i know theres bad cops out there but what kid doesnt idolize firemen or cops? falling in a river makes you the victim of an accident. jumping into the river to save someone makes you willing to risk your life for another human being. big difference. sounds to me like some pissy image dominated stockbrokers widow cant handle that her hubby cant be a hero like all those middle class firemen.

Offline anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2003, 04:39:26 PM »
midnight target what does "straw man" mean?

Offline Syzygyone

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Well that's the point!
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2003, 04:44:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Scootter
Ex USAF Firefighter here and my vote is no,

Firemen will always do the job, some will die, and no statue is required.

Our troops, police, firefighters, Americans all, and are remembered as a group and honored that way.

To many heroes past, present and future to honor with a statue. One memorial for all as they all died with honor and together.


Scooter, you are so correct but that is exactly why there needs to be a separate memorial.  Yes, firemen will always do their job.  Yes, policemen, like the ones in LA in the 44 minutes incident, will do their job.  But, that job involves risk to life and limb for the benefit of strangers.  How many people were saved because first responders got them out?  Who knows exactly but it has to be thousands.  And that's just in the WTC.

You know what happens when cops and firefighters hesitate.  People die, usually innocent people. i.e. look at the Columbine argument as an example.

A memorial to the actions of those true heroes is not for them.  NO tribute could ever suffice.  A memorial is for the surviving members of the society that they died trying to protect.  A memorial is needed so that there will constantly be inspiration to and affirmation of sacrifice for the benefit of others.  To insure that there will always be heroes here, willing to do the hard things.

It's what sets us apart, I think. And you are of course correct,  They do not do it to get praise, or raises, or medals, or statues.  But, I look at it more for the future than for the posthuminous accolades.  Look at all the military memorials there are, WORLDWIDE.  I see this as no differenet, and indeed, even more impelling than a military memorial (and I'm a guy who looses it at the sound of TAPS).

Some of the most emotionally compelling photographs I have ever seen were:

a) the flag in the rubble of the Murrah Building, put there by first responders soon after their arrival, and

b) the firemen raising the American flag above the rubble at the WTC, soon after their arrival.

c) the flag draped over the side of the Pentagon

Those pictures say to the world, in the midst of terrible devasation and suffereing, "THIS NATION WILL SURVIVE"

The reason we will survive is becuase of the unselfish willingness toward self-sacrifice of those heroes that planted those flags.


Oh well, I guess I'll never understand the egalitarian concept.  But I can't help wondering if those who preach the egalitarian concept could do so if there weren't those walking amoung us willing to die to protect their eglitarian necks!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2003, 04:47:56 PM by Syzygyone »

Offline midnight Target

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2003, 06:11:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by anonymous
midnight target what does "straw man" mean?


A baseless point that is incredibly one sided and as such provides easy fodder to be argued against (knocked down as in a straw man). Usually either untrue or semitrue or hearsay.

For example...

I heard So and So beats his wife. I'm against wife beating, how about you?

Offline Hortlund

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2003, 03:33:18 AM »
(disclaimer: This is not directed at anyone on this thread. In fact, I havent read any post except the first one)


Insecure a-holes with small dicks.

Are the ones trying to stop that statue. Becuase they need the "But, I'm special too."-feeling... otherwise their little world will collapse. They cannot accept the fact that there are people braver than them, people putting their lives on the line every day, people that run into burning buildings. See they dont like that thought, they want to feel like a hero too, sitting at their pathetic deskjob shuffling paper from one tray to another. So they argue along the lines of "no one was better than anyone else, that all alike were helpless, victims".

What unbelieveable B-S.

Soldiers, cops, firefighters, paramedics. They all put their life on the line for the rest of us. They dont expect statues, and they dont do it for the money. But to say that they are just like the rest of us is an insult. In times of peace, people tend to look down on soldiers and cops, but in times of war they whimp behind their backs. Its the same thing here really. And it will get worse, as 9-11 fades back through time.

Offline Naso

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2003, 04:12:45 AM »
I agree with Hortlund.

for all the Firefighters of the world.

Oh... yes... for the cops too.... when they dont set speedtraps. ;) :D

Offline straffo

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« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2003, 04:31:41 AM »
Bad SA today Naso ?

Offline Naso

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« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2003, 04:39:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Bad SA today Naso ?


No, no, just the fear. :)

Goodbye to driving licence for 6 months, and 2.000 Euro fine. :eek:

And with my work will be a real damage. :)

Funny note:

They (with disgusted voice ;) ) are using civil fast (rice?) cars, and provoke you for a race, then arrest you :eek:

Bastidges !! :)
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 04:48:15 AM by Naso »

Offline Toad

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2003, 07:18:42 AM »
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"Greater Love Hath No Man Than This, That He Lay Down His Life For His Friends"

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Syzygyone

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No Firefighter Statue. . . .
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2003, 08:40:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Where is this declaration? (I sense a straw man).



So did your follow-on post clear up the "straw man" thing?

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2003, 09:38:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Syzygyone
So did your follow-on post clear up the "straw man" thing?


Somewhat.

If you were to read the actual declaration from all the groups involved in the memorial discussions, there was much more agreement than there was dissension. It was also noted on that site that ONE (1) man in the family-of-victims group expressed concern about the memorial being given over completely to the rescue workers.

I think we would all agree that the memorial should be for the thousands of victims of the tragedy. I think we should also agree that those brave rescue workers deserve a place of honor on that hallowed ground.

The family's concerns are valid. It would be inappropriate to have a memorial that centered solely on the rescue workers, just as it would be inappropriate to not give them their due recognition.

If Auschwitz became a memorial to the 101st Airborne (or whoever liberated the camp) it would be inappropriate. However, the liberators deserve to be honored.

Offline Syzygyone

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« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2003, 09:51:17 AM »
MT, my friend:

You are such a fine middle-of-the-road pleaser type!  What did you do?  Take a graduate course in How to Win Friends and Influence BBSs? ;)  I'm tryin' to smoke out one or two of them there "eglitarians", ya know?  Tryin to spice up this BBS with some fiestiness that we haven't seen for a few weeks.  ;)   I was hoping that they would bite :eek:   But, noooooo.  Mr Level headed has to jump in with all his calm cool reasonableness.  Damn!  In the future, would you please advise when you're on vacation away from the internet so I can have some fun!

:D


Seriously though, what you say is very well put, especially the liberation thing.  Just substitute rescuer for liberator.

Cya Up!