Author Topic: Gold and Economic Freedom  (Read 1605 times)

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2003, 03:56:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Syzygyone
US currency is also gold backed, is it not?


not since 1972 I think
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline miko2d

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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2003, 03:59:04 PM »
Eagler: ...seeing the dollar is backed by paper and the euro is backed by gold - sorta starting to think it was too....

 Euro is not backed by gold - none of world currencies currently is.


Syzygyone: US currency is also gold backed, is it not?

 No. Dollar stopped being backed by gold for everybody except foreign governments in 1933 and for foreign governments in 1971.


Ripsnort: Used to be enough in Fort Knox to back the dollar up...not anymore unless you count assets too.

 It was never enough since from it's inception in 1913 the Federal Reserve was a fractional reserve system. There were always more paper dollars than gold supposed to back them up.

 Now the Fort Knox holds 8,500 tons of gold, if my info is correct (it never held more than 22,000 tonns anyway) which makes it about 100 billion at today's prices.
 Compare that to 35 trillion dollars and US government obligations currently outstanding.

 miko

Offline Syzygyone

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Miko Miko Miko
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2003, 03:59:14 PM »
Ferget it!

Offline miko2d

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Re: Miko Miko Miko
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2003, 04:08:20 PM »
Syzygyone: Ferget it!

 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

 And St. Darwin will take care of the rest. My goal is never to change people's opinion - only to alert them to existence of some issue in the first place and be able to acquire knowlege by themselves if they care.

 miko

Offline Eagler

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Gold and Economic Freedom
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2003, 04:17:09 PM »
miko
isn't the euro backed by gold to a degree? 25% or something whereas the dollar is not?
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2003, 04:24:14 PM »
Too lazy to read all that. Should I head for the shelter now or wait till after dinner?


(Ayn Rand was a wacko!)

Offline Syzygyone

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Re: Re: Miko Miko Miko
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2003, 04:42:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Syzygyone: Ferget it!

 "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

 And St. Darwin will take care of the rest. My goal is never to change people's opinion - only to alert them to existence of some issue in the first place and be able to acquire knowlege by themselves if they care.

 miko


Hmmmmm. Interesting.  Is Darwin a saint where you come from?

Meanwhile, I meant no disrespect to either you or your understanding of Greenspans article.  If I'd have wished to show disrespect, I'd have said something like Miko, you ignroant slut!  :p

However, the depth of the concepts you are attempting to discuss so far outstrip the potential for BBS discussion that it is a waste to even try, as evidenced by the fact that you and I do not disagree but you think we do.

:D

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2003, 04:47:51 PM »
Eagler: miko, isn't the euro backed by gold to a degree? 25% or something whereas the dollar is not?

 There is no provision in the law or any record on Euro notes that Euro is redeamable in anything. It does not matter how much gold or other backing (mostly dollar) is there in the central  bank's vaults. In fact there does not have to be any backing by gold or anything else for the current monetary system to operate.
 The paper Euro is money, that's it. Government creates money and paper Euro is that money.

 It used to be untill 1971 in US that dollar was money and that dollar was a certain weight in gold or rather a gold coin.
 The bank or federal reserve note was not money but a "receipt" for money in the bank - bank or reserve note. It did not even say (untill very end) "this note entitles a bearer to receive so much gold (or silver)" but rather "this note entitles a bearer to receive a gold (or silver) dollar".
 Gold dollar coin was money. Now paper dollar and paper Euro are money. There is no backing for them other than faith of the government and it's taxing power.

 There is no reason to keep any gold in Ft. Knox as backing for the money and the fact that government does that is an indication that it belives that the whole paper money scheme may one day unravel.


midnight Target: Too lazy to read all that. Should I head for the shelter now or wait till after dinner?

 If you mean it figuratively, like should you diversify a part of your savings in gold - then you may want do it before dinner.


 By the way, why are people mentioning Ayn Rand here? The article in question is by Alan Greenspan and it does not mention Ayn Rand. It is based on the austrian and classical economics that predates Ayn Rand (who was never an economist anyway) by good cople hundred years.

 miko

Offline miko2d

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Re: Re: Re: Miko Miko Miko
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2003, 04:59:33 PM »
Syzygyone: Hmmmmm. Interesting.  Is Darwin a saint where you come from?

 He kind of embodies the self-correcting forces of nature to me. :)


Meanwhile, I meant no disrespect to either you or your understanding of Greenspans article.

 I did not perceive your "...Miko Ferget it!" as an insult or disrespect.
 I perceived it as "Miko, this topic is too deep for this audience" and apparently I was righ about that.

 My Jesus quote in reply "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" was not intended towards you but referred to the rest of the audience - meaning that some people may decide to take it seriously and the rest are not really my concern.


 Now, let me try this:
 We do not disagree and I do not think that we disagree but you mistakenly thought that I thought that we disagreed even though we did not disagree. Here is where we disagree... :D


P.S. This BBS has one great thing - variety. As one smart person said, it's not essential that most people held the correct idea. It's essential that every correct idea could be expressed and find an audience. Or something to that extent.
 When I need knowlege, I can get it first hand from the foremost expert by buying his book. What conversations here made realise was that there exists some knowlege that may be worth investigating that I was not even aware about.

 miko

Offline threedays

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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2003, 05:10:47 PM »
just finger for mike ;) (that short one, not the middle one :D )

Offline Syzygyone

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Miko Miko Miko
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2003, 05:21:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d


We do not disagree and I do not think that we disagree but you mistakenly thought that I thought that we disagreed even though we did not disagree. Here is where we disagree... :D

 miko


ROFL!  I know you think you know you understood what you think I meant but I am not sure that what you think you understood is what I meant.  Moreover, what you think I meant is not the same as what I said because I am not sure you understood that what I think I meant what I said.
:D

Pesonally, I am still going to play the lotto, even if it is just for paper money!

BTW, Ayn Rand was mentioned because of the google search bringing up a book she worte.  Many people feel she is notoriously non-original in her overall economic philisophy but she was successful in popularizing the concepts espoused by the more esoteric economists.  And besides, the idea of a machine that runs on static electricity, thereby eliminating the need for 99% of the fossile fuel useage in the world is intriguing, is it not?

;)

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2003, 06:05:17 PM »
Syzygyone: Pesonally, I am still going to play the lotto, even if it is just for paper money!

 As long as you realise it's based on the same principle as playing "musical chairs".


GScholz: So if the Dollar goes the way of the Deutschmark (after WWI) and crashes the US economy, it will prolly take most of the world economy with it, right?

 Not necessarily. Change in the quantity of money does not destroy physical and intellectual resources and the right economic policy can have economy back on track literally overnight, political considerations permitting. Witness  Ludwig Erhard's "turning on" Germany's economy in 1947 by abolishing price and wage controls.

 Considerng that US is currently an immediate drain on world's economic resources through trade disbalance and export of inflation (while being major creator of new technologies, which matters long-term), the world's economic health could actually benefit.

 Also, "crashes" may be a too loaded word to use here. If the US economy - or rather unproductive sectors that were beneficiaries of misallocated capital are allowed to "crash" while wealth and labor resources are reallocated towards more productive used - that will be very beneficial for everyone involved who was engaged in real production rather than was a beneficiaty of redistribution.
 On the other hand the crisis may be used by politicians to complete establishment of socialist totalitarian state here which would be bad.


If so, what should I buy first with my rapidly dwindling wealth, food or a gun?

 It's not dwindling wealth that is most dangerous, it's seemingly raising wealth that proves to be a bubble that can cause most dire consequences.
 Anyway, would you rather risk being hungry or not able to defend yourself and yours?

 miko

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2003, 06:37:36 PM »
Well miko its nice to see how you understand the relationship between economic expansion, the resulting need for more currency and of course the problem all those present when you try to idiotically match currency to gold... :rolleyes:

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2003, 02:48:29 PM »
Syzygyone: Moreover, given gold's relative scarcity compared to silver, it was of even greater value and eventually pushed silver out of the game.
miko: It's not any intrinsic properties of gold that pushed the silved out but the fact that some economically important countries have adopted it as money already.

 Small correction - US and Great Britain wer actively involved in enforcing the gold standard on many countries - Lating America and others under Charles Conant. In fact US itself was pushed into gold standard from the silver one by british inerests.


GRUNHERZ: miko its nice to see how you understand the relationship between economic expansion, the resulting need for more currency...

 Grun,

 What is "economic expansion"? If you mean economic growth, it is not the same and even not related to monetary expansion.

 Also, what do  you mean by "more currency". If you mean more tokens/notes/coins, those can be produced in any denominations at will.
 If gold was used as money and purchasing power of a smallest coin got too great, that coin could have been easily melted into several smaller ones. If silver was used as money and the purchasing power of largest usable silver coin was too small, we would leave a bag of them it in the bank and carry a paper bank note backed by silver instead. Basically, the issues are purely technical, not economic.

...the resulting need for more currency...

 If you mean more money, the economic growth does not require increase in quantity of money. The same fixed amount of gold or any other commodity used as money or even the same fixed amount of "paper" money would have served all the needs of growing economy perfectly. The purchasing power of money grows or declines according to supply/demand like any other economic good. With fixed amount of money we would have a small drop in prices (not to confuse with deflation) every year reflecting increased productivity.

   Money is unique in that it is a good that is not consumed in the process of production and increase in it's supply does not confer any social benefit.

the problem all those present when you try to idiotically match currency to gold...

 I am not sure what you are talking about here. If gold (or another commodity) is money, what would be the meaning of phrase "match currency to gold"? Gold coins or bars or gold receipts would be currrency, counted in ounces or grams (dollars  was originally a term for a specific quantity of gold).

 The economic activity is an exchange of goods and labor for other goods. Money just acts as intermediary in that exchange and in some respects is acts as claim against goods. When you create money you do not create any goods but just claims against existing goods. The marginal purchasing power of money inevitably falls proportionately to the amount issued.
 
 This way the holders of existing money are robbed of part of their value, since they  now receive less goods for their money than they sold in order to get that money. Creation of money is pure and arbitrary redistribution. So commodity money - not necessarily gold but anything that the government cannot prioduce "out of the thin air" would prevent governments from expropriating value this way.

 miko

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2003, 03:33:52 PM »
Miko the simple fact in US history is that backing currencty to gold is unworkable. Over time it became meaningless as more and more reductions in % backed were implemented.  Or like during wartime when more currency was needed to pay all the new workers and soldiers the gold backing was suspened because it was impossible to acquire enough gold to back the currency.  

But have your gold fantasy if you like it...