MAUS (marsupials against uber spits)

[jmccaul]

Fats :

quote
If WB's modeling can be used as any kind of indicative evidence, I say Bf 109F-4 can very well dogfight with Spitfire IX.
end quote

It is very hard to talk about unquantiable aspects of fighting but on a pure stats basis i'm pretty sure the G10 in most of the important things better than the F4 due to it being a later model(they are hardly going to make it worse)The f4 may turn better but in a 109 this sin't going to be the most important factor.

   You are probably right there is not much difference between the F4 and the spit 9 but I still think the G10 is more of a match.

[fats]

--- jmccaul: ---
It is very hard to talk about unquantiable aspects of fighting but on a pure stats basis i'm pretty sure the G10 in most of the important things better than the F4 due to it being a later model(they are hardly going to make it worse)The f4 may turn better but in a 109 this sin't going to be the most important factor.
--- end ---

It all depends what kind of fight you are looking for and enjoy. With Bf 109F-4 you can enter a stall fight against Spitfire Mk.IX in WB, in Bf 109K-4 ( AH G-10 ) it would be suicide. F-4 and K-4 are totally different planes.

If I was to fly F-4 in AH for a month and then G-10 for a month, trying to get as high K/D as possible in both planes, there wouldn't be much of a difference probably in the end. But while trying to get it, I think I would enjoy more getting the K/D in a plane flying like F-4 than G-10 cause the fights could/would be totally different.


//fats

[janneh]

"G10 in most of the important things better than the F4 due to it being a later model(they are hardly going to make it worse)"

You're wrong, they actually did it worse as their goal was a bomber interceptor (but here on dogfight, they sux).

"The f4 may turn better but in a 109 this sin't going to be the most important factor."

109F is light (light armor, 1x20 / 2x7.9mm), and very good vertical / TnB fighter.
Turns almost as good as spit (in WB)

When comparing 109F4 to any G or K series, it'll beat'em anytime.

In WB if You flew 109K, Your only way to somewhat manage it was a BnZ and with 109's compression character, oh well...

I agree with Fats, Franz should be next 109, ASAP !



------------------
janneh down and out !

[jmccaul]

Granted the f4 is a better turn and burn plane but it is still not as good as the spit 9 in this respect so i maintain the belife that the G10 is a better match against the spit in the arena it is just you have to fly it different like fats said.
    Frankly most 41 era planes will turn better and are genarally more nimble than the current plane set more competitive than the current G10? The spit 5 is lighter and nimbler than the spit 9 is it better, o way the spit 9 was basically to counter the fact that the heavy, cumbersome 190A4 which completly outcalssed the spit 5

[-kier-]

In a base defense situation, I think I would opt for the Spit V over the Spit IX... quicker lift off, better turn, same guns.

[Nath-BDP]

I don't know where you are getting your info about the F4 having 'light armor', the F4 was incredibily armored, the pilot having increased seat protection by the addition of a 6mm armor plate at a 45° angle to protect the pilot's head and an external armored windscreen compared to the F3 which lacked those.

 

------------------
1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"

[jmccaul]

-kier-
In quick base defense the hurri 2 is also a good choice - turns well has big guns but it does not make it competitive in an arena of spit 9's  

[fd ski]

Once again, the same old debate...

Check this one out, it actually uses numbers not stories...
Make sure to chekc out all pages - it starts a a flame and turns constructive..

 http://lists.imagiconline.com/ubb/Forum19/HTML/000238.html

Bottom line is, Spitfire 9 can outrun outturn and barely but still outclimb G2.
Which means it can do the same against G6 - which overall is somewhat heavier then G2.
With GM1 - both G2 and G6 can probably outclimb spitfire by a bit, but it should be remembered that GM1 was designed for use over 20k !!! Where second stage supercharger of Merlin kicked in and spitfire's climb rate didn't drop off nearly as much as that of other planes.
G10 can outclimb spitfire if equiped wiht GM1 - bit don't fool yourself into thinking that you can get low and slow with spitfire and then point your nose up when you get in trouble and be saved.....

Let's make an example:
Let's say for example that 109G10 wiht GM1 climbs at 5k/minute
and spit9 at 4k/minute. ( this is far larger gap then in reality, but use that for argument's sake )

Therefore after a MINUTE of vertical maneuvering after starting from the same position, 109G10 will be D3.3 above spitfire. Now we all know that it's possible to shoot someone's bellybutton off from D3 , right ?
Also we should remember that most fights don't last as long as a minute..
Therefore quit thinking that 109's climb will save your bellybutton everytime - it won't.



------------------


Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[Jochen]

 

Bottom line is, Spitfire 9 can outrun outturn and barely but still outclimb G2.

I'm still not quite sure about the climb department but otherwise that assumption seems correct.

 

Which means it can do the same against G6 - which overall is somewhat heavier then G2.

Heavier and also poorer on aerodynamic properties due the MG 131 spend ammo chute bumps.

 

With GM1 - both G2 and G6 can probably outclimb spitfire by a bit, but it should be remembered that GM1 was designed for use over 20k !!!

But many G-6's had MW 50 that will help the climb quite a much in low alts.

Now this might make 109G look like bad plane. It really wasn't.

Spit IX was pretty rare bird when G-2 came to service. G-2 could do very well against Spit V being faster and better climber. The G-6 was, however not so good match for Spit IX.

In brand W the RPS slightly advances the appearance of Spit IX in numbers and it makes G-6 a definite underdog. In real life Luftwaffe encoutered Spit V LF (low level, clipped wings and low alt optimized Merlin) planes troughout the war which weren't a good match for 109's and 190's. But of course this is not the case in any online sim.

If there could be plane availability modeled in brand W or in AH, talk about Uber Spit would be almost nonexistent because every Spit you see wouldn't be a Spit IX.

The fuel burn rate modifier used in AH beta arena makes Spit not so uber, it has quite short legs when compared against some other planes. Which is good and historical and in long run will limit number of Spitfires in air to more historical numbers.

In pure dogfight Spit is good (maybe the best) plane but it's range shortcoming are apparent only in well designed arena or scenario.

See fd ski, whole post about Spit and not a single slam, pretty good eh  

------------------
jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (Warbirds)

If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!

[Hristo]

So, what's the point in 109G-10 vs Spit 9 ?

IMHO, 109G-10 is such an awesome Spit killer that I really wonder how they did not come up with "Give us Spit XIV" complaints  
Of course, I would like to have K-4, but G-10 is nice bird too.

As for 190, I think it suffers from being put up against P-51D. Spits are not that dangerous. Dora(tm) is the answer  




[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-15-1999).]

[juzz]

Screw the Griffon Spitfire, give us the 24-cylinder Napier Sabre engined Tempest V  

[Jochen]

 

Screw the Griffon Spitfire, give us the 24-cylinder Napier Sabre engined Tempest V

Listen my son,

Tempest is not the uber dogfighter of the WWII.

It is fast and it has good guns, yes, but it does not roll too well and it's turning radius ain't much smaller than of Bf 109 and Fw 190. And last but not least, Tempest suffered from compressions on high speeds! Spitfire XIV is far better dogfighter than Tempest which is more like Fw 190.

If we ever get Tempest, it will be funny to read this BBS when Tempest pilots cry out their dissapointment for their ride.

 

------------------
jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (Warbirds)

If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!

[blur]

I have to agree with Hristo on this one. I initially flew the spit most of the time when AH first came out but I recently started taking up the G-10. Wow, the spit has little chance unless it can get a good bounce from altitude. Also I used to have a hard time killing P51's flying the spit but not in this bird. In fact while most pony drivers will run away from spit they show no hesitation to mix it up with the G-10!  

[Laika]

fd ski wrote:
"Therefore after a MINUTE of vertical maneuvering after starting from the same position, 109G10 will be D3.3 above spitfire. Now we all know that it's possible to shoot someone's bellybutton off from D3 , right ?
Also we should remember that most fights don't last as long as a minute..
Therefore quit thinking that 109's climb will save your bellybutton everytime - it won't."

hmmm... I've seen this sorta thing mentioned before and dont get it.. if you are in gun range and on someone's six he should be a dead man what ever the planes are. (most of the time)

That "D3" a minute is for after you make a kill and find you have "his" wingman on your six at D10 ...To be able to climb away now is what the "D3" is all about. To do that in a "event" with a couple of spits behind you slowly getting left behind is sweet  

laika-
8./JG5  

[Pongo]

Let's make an example:
Let's say for example that 109G10 wiht GM1 climbs at 5k/minute
and spit9 at 4k/minute. ( this is far larger gap then in reality, but use that for argument's sake )

Therefore after a MINUTE of vertical maneuvering after starting from the same position, 109G10 will be D3.3 above spitfire. Now we all know that it's possible to shoot someone's bellybutton off from D3 ,

a more likly version is you start out at D3 and after a minute of vertical manuver you are at D6...