Author Topic: Concerned  (Read 363 times)

Offline weazel

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« on: September 06, 1999, 11:59:00 PM »
Going to open a can of worms here but,Will AH go the route of TOSCWB and fudge the A/C for "Playability" or will it be true to the actual A/C that flew in WW2? What we don`t need is another sim with the sacred Spitwad dominating.

Offline Jochen

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« Reply #1 on: September 07, 1999, 01:20:00 AM »
I'm afraid I see some signs of deviation from totally accurate sim. In WEP (in)fidelity thread it came apparent that some performace increasing devices will not be implemented 100% correctly, for example MW-50 was rated for 20 minutes of continuous use. In game, it (and others too) might have only 5 minutes of continuous use. Of course pilots didn't use the WEP on all flights unlike we will do in AH.

While this is propably neccessary for MA type arenas (for playability reasons), it will somewhat undermine scenario type events. As I see the things now (I, of course, could be very wrong), AH will be leaned towards continuous running arenas rather than big scenarios, which is of course financially sensible.

Spitfire was brilliant piece of aeronautical engineering. It suits perfectly to the role it was intented, short range interceptor and air superiority plane which is the role most planes are used in WB. Combined with arguably good FM, you get perfect plane for MA furballs. But if the MA used a fuel modifier smaller than 1 you would see little more variety.

In our clinically perfect AH and WB world, small performance diffecentes become huge issue. There are no cloudbed to hide so usually only option for weaker plane is to fight. In fight, if the pilots are equally good, better plane usually wins. If you know there is very good plane abailable, are you going to fly it?

You can't blame Spit pilots for being smart but sometimes little variety would be nice.

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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline weazel

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« Reply #2 on: September 07, 1999, 02:52:00 AM »
So we are going to end up with the sim being porked right from the start in regards to advantages some A/C would "historically" have had over another-sounds like Spitbirds TNG to me,blech guess I wont be wasting my money on this version of Warbirds either!

-Ireg-

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 1999, 03:09:00 AM »
Weazel, just stay with Warbirds. They started to make the planes more accurate thanks to Hotseat. Hope it's the time in Warbirds to get rid of the old "adjustments" for better "playability".

Offline Jochen

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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 1999, 08:19:00 AM »
 
Quote
They started to make the planes more accurate thanks to Hotseat. Hope it's the time in Warbirds to get rid of the old "adjustments" for better "playability".

Hmm. I really hope they have data which they can use and not only take some wild guesses to please masses. Of course pleasing masses could be good for your profits bit it might be bad for hardcore player base. it's all about balancing between 'game' and 'simulation'.

It's interesting to see what way AH and WWIIOL will choose!


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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'
jochen Gefechtsverband Kowalewski

Units: I. and II./KG 51, II. and III./KG 76, NSGr 1, NSGr 2, NSGr 20.
Planes: Do 17Z, Ju 87D, Ju 88A, He 111H, Ar 234A, Me 410A, Me 262A, Fw 190A, Fw 190F, Fw 190G.

Sieg oder bolsevismus!

Offline -morc-

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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 1999, 09:59:00 AM »
It's interesting...

You guys whine about "Imbalance" in WB,  hoping to get better odds with AH.  

Now,  WITHOUT any feedback from the developers,  you jump to conclusions and assume your hopes are dashed.  

Man,  this community has got to have the highest percentage of whiners and complainers,  I commend HT and all who create these sims for their tenacity in the face of this nonsense.

Morc

Offline jocko-

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« Reply #6 on: September 07, 1999, 11:20:00 AM »
P'raps the reason you will only get 5 min. of WEP vs. 20 is the Virtual World is only a fraction the size of ours.
417jocko
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351st FS, 353rd FG
"Slybirds!"

Offline Pyro

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« Reply #7 on: September 07, 1999, 12:46:00 PM »
Talk is cheap, don't believe everything you hear.  I've heard some of the things that you allude to.  You didn't open a can of worms, someone else did.  At least you've given me the opportunity to respond to it.  I normally don't want to respond to subjects about my previous work, but I feel that it is warranted this time and I would like to get some things off of my ches and set a few things straight.  I've heard some of the rumors about my prior work and am left wondering how WB has achieved such success in spite of me working on it.  I hear stories of how I was always making 'playability' changes to planes and not even telling people about it.  I find the idea that I was constantly making gameplay changes to aircraft fairly amusing except for the fact that some people believe it.  Maybe that makes it more amusing, I don't know.  Modeling planes was not my primary job, it was a collateral duty that I handled.  On top of that, I wasn't just dealing with one project.  I didn't have a big staff of people that could specialize on every little detail that needed to be done.  Despite that, I still modeled 6-12 new planes every release for the most part.  I'm pretty impressed with how I could handle all that and still have the time and energy to spend tinkering around with stuff that wasn't broken.  

If you want an honest self-appraisal, the truth is that I loathed making changes to a fault.  I wasn't going to fix something that wasn't broken, and I wanted some strong evidence to show me that something wasn't right.  There were some problems that I didn't recognize soon enough and didn't get fixed, but that was mainly due to workload.

As for fudging planes for playability reasons, that's also a load of tripe.  My playability decisions were based on what planes or variants would be modeled and implementing things like the RPS.  The only place playability had a part in how a plane was modeled dealt with trying to overcome the limitations inherent to computer simming.

A lot of this also goes back to the beginnings of WB when I did have to make a lot of changes in the beta and shortly after going pay.  I didn't have 60 or so examples to work with and I didn't have someone to teach me how to do it.  It was a difficult process to get through and required a lot of trial and error.  My techniques improved a lot over the years and some of the older models suffered from my novice ignorance and naiviety about how to research and interpret data and translate it into the flight engine successfully.  I've been doing this for four years now and my outlook is quite a bit different than when I started.  When you first get into something, it's easy to think you know all the answers when in fact, you just don't know all the questions.  It reminds me of the Mark Twain quote that goes something like this: "When I was a teenager, my father was the stupidest man in the world.  By the time I turned 30, he was the smartest.  How'd he get so smart?"



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Offline weazel

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« Reply #8 on: September 07, 1999, 12:47:00 PM »
OK, I need to clarify the point I`m trying to make. I can agree the Spitfires flight characteristics may be modeled correctly and thus give it advantages in comparison to other aircraft. But by the same token if another aircraft had a superior design characteristic then it too should be faithfully modeled as well. If the 109 had a longer WEP duration than the Spitfire this gives the chance of escape during an extension,but if all aircraft get a generic WEP then you have taken away any advantage that may have existed in the real world. This will have the effect of skewing  gameplay/balance in favor of one aircraft and end up with an arena full of that aircraft. This just isn`t much fun and wont hold my interest for long.

Offline Beaz

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« Reply #9 on: September 07, 1999, 01:27:00 PM »
Good point weazel... I do agree with you... let the chips fall where they may... if an aircraft had a particular feature then have that represented faithfully in the design (warts and all) then use some other means to limit that aircraft in the game if things get out of hand...

and all this from a dedicated Spit driver  

Regards

Daren

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Beaz
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Offline Pyro

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« Reply #10 on: September 07, 1999, 01:38:00 PM »
Jochen,

Please reread my post that you refer to.  I didn't say all planes had of WEP.  I said that most planes did.  This is a true statement, most planes were only rated for 5 minutes of emergency power.  The part about being fairly generic had to do with what happens when when that limit is exceeded.


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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Offline Merlin

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« Reply #11 on: September 07, 1999, 04:33:00 PM »
Pyro,

Recently the historical arena in Warbirds has seen some changes and started to generate a following.

This new found popularity has exposed some game play issues and I was wondering if AH will be able to manage around them. Namely the imbalance which seems to always occur when one side gets a plane which is a superior fighter than the other sides best choice.

A lot of guys are looking for a better arrangement than the main arena. The idea of flying against historical plane types, instead of all pilots being able to fly any plane, is a real draw. But given that there were some models introduced that were clearly better than than the oppositions, how do you create an environment that will allow you to match up sides, and keep them balanced in numbers at the same time? As it is now, pilots flock to the side that has the easiest overall FM to score with.

To me this is the key that will either make or break any historical approach to simming. Do you guys have any plans to create historical arena's or is the focus more on any plane that a pilot wants to fly on any side?

Merlin

HotSeat

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« Reply #12 on: September 07, 1999, 04:58:00 PM »
Hey Guys,
I don't know where you got the idea I was
ever "trashing" Pyro's work ?
Everyone has there own idea on how an AC should be modeled, and I found Doug's
work, very well done.
The truth is I don't know "who" and "what"
changes where made to the FM's, because
some where changed without comments.

Hell Doug saved us a hell of alot of reverse
engineering work, by giving me an over view
of the FM system  

I hope Hitech and crew the best,
I am still grateful they help us out,
and looking forward to flying Dougs models  


Dan "HotSeat <fubar>" Neault S.A.E

Offline Krod

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« Reply #13 on: September 07, 1999, 05:15:00 PM »
I have every confidence that Pyro will do the right thing in AH. I was priviledged to work with him once or twice in WB, and while I didn't always agree with the things he did (G), he normally did exactly what his head (not his heart) told him to do. And nearly every time it turned out to be the  correct decision.

The rest of the team have reputations that speak for themselves. HT, Monkey, the Dweeb formerly known as Natedog, etc...

Looking forward to flying one of Pyro's and HiTech's creations again...  


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Krod
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Krod's WarBirds Pages, featuring Hatchlings
 krod.warbirds.org/
Editor: The WarBirds Book
 www.nitro.co.za/wb-book/

Offline NATEDOG

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« Reply #14 on: September 07, 1999, 05:25:00 PM »
HEY! I'm still known as NATEDOG!
It's the dweeb er artist formerly known as MONKEY, he's now SUPERFLY.
 

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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
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