CT Set-Up July 4th - 10th

[ergRTC]

sbd and kates/vals are fine.  Will be more fun with just them.  That is untill they add the b25.  Which will be never.

Hazed, I dont agree with your f4 at all.  p40b vs a 109f4 is almost as much fun as an sbd alone against an a6m5.  Remember that part of this game is to have fun, that would not be fun.  202 was already uber as hell in that setup, luckily it has crap for guns.  They have to make a comprimise.  In the case of super bombers in burma I think there is just no purpose.

[Urchin]

Well, in the interest of having fun, I'd suggest no more A6M2 vs P40B matches.  The P40E vs the A6M2 is a decent matchup, the P40B just plain sucks.  On paper it is about 5 mph faster, but since you'll run out of gas before you get to your top speed in a P-40B, it is slower, turns much worse, has less firepower, accelerates worse, and climbs worse.  The P-40E at least had more firepower than the A6M2.

[brady]

Actualy the P40B has more firepower than the A6M2.

Lets take a look at the comparative weights of fire of the primary apponts in the Curent CT set up:

P40b:

Four Browning 30M2 1200 rpm / 490 rpg @ 835m/s, weight 9.73g=15.89

Two Browning 50cal 750 rpm / 380 rpg @ 870m/s, weight 48.5g=38.64

Total:54.53

Huricane MK I:

Eight Browning 303's 1140 rpm / 333 rpg @ 745m/s, weight 11.3g=26.406


A6M2:

Two Type 97 7.7mm 1000 rpm / 680 rpg @750m/s, weight 11.3g=15.368

Two Type 99 MK I 20mm 520 rpm / 60 rpg @525m/s, weight 129g=29.76

Total:45.129

C.202:

Two Breda SAFAT 7.7mm 900 rpm / 500 rpg @730 m/s, weight 11.9g=13.222

Two Breda SAFAT 12.7mm 700 rpm / 400 rpg @ 760 m/s, weight 36.7g=41.94

Total: 55.16

The Nate(Ki-27) and the Oscar(ki-43 early model) both had only Two 7.7mm MG's, so clearly they would be at a serious firepower disavantage, or rather "Firepower Chalanged.

Somthing the above Numbers do not cover is Effctive range, the US 50 cal has a tremendious effective range advantage over the 20mm and 7mm rounds on the Zero, at least 3 times the range, this being said the 50cal could acheave meaningfull hits withen an envelope at least 3 time larger than Zero's.

Another point not covered is time on target, the 8 gun pack on the Huricane can deleaver damage Four times faster than the Japanese 7mm rounds.


When I say the Allies have a fire Power advantage this is what I am refering to, compound that advantage with the Fragile Zero, and tough P40 and Huricane and you have the full picture.



 The Peggy also has prety much the same bombload as any other Japanese Bomber, around 1800 pounds, so it's not uber in this since.

[ergRTC]

no were not complaining about the bombload.  its that 20mm, the 12.7s and the mach 1 airspeed.

Urchin, spiral dive to get away from the zero.  If you are too low to do that you bought the farm long before the zero got near you.

[hazed-]

ergRTC you do realise the boston III outruns a 109E at sea level dont you ?

you agree the ki-67 outrunning the allies isnst fair because the matchup against the slower P40B/HurriI yet you say you dont want the 109F which is what would have chased those Bostons and caught them quite easily.

The reason i thought libiya was setup wrong was two-fold.
1) the P40Es would have been fighting 109F's mainly at the time in WW2 and its highly unlikey they saw 109E's.
2) I flew the 109E and found it severely lacking vs the Boston III i chased. he dived and outran me!. I fought a p40E and managed to hit but it dived away and left me behind.I then decided to fly back to base and took a stuka which was totally desroyed by a P40E very easily .

sort of makes you want the real 109F if you know what i mean.  hehe

its the same situation only reversed in the case of bombers burma setup. i know the 109F will make the P40E look bad but hey thats what they faced in 1942.I know it means axis have the best plane but theres a lot of other set ups where the allies have the top ride. why not have it axis favoured? at this point of the war it did favour the axis.
The Malta air battles for instance are special BECAUSE of the fact the allies fought with (generally) inferior machines vs Germanies best types. Faith Hope and Charity were 3 Gloster Gladiator bi-plane fighters and they were all that Malta had to defend itself for quite a while.Amazingly they held the Germans off.would you have this setup with the gladiators and germans in Fokker triplanes? I know its more fun for the allies to have the better P40E but the flipside is the axis flyers dont have that same fun with their (historically) superior 109F. To me its completely fair. Surely there are many setups with USN vs IJN where the allies enjoy a great deal of performance advantage?

Fairs , Fair , everyone should get their turns right?

[_Schadenfreude_]

Bottom line is we need a lot more a/c modelled to be able to have historical match ups.

[ergRTC]

It all depends on the singular advantages of each plane though.  And by the way I thought the boston was a bit fast too, but its not a 1944 bird.

P40e or b climbs like the titanic, is slow, accelerates like my camry, and in a <250mph dogfight is about even par with the 109f.   That pretty much means the 109f owns you, I would rather fly a hurri cause at least it handles like a dream, has great e retention, and can take a lot of punishment.  I dont know many people that would rather fly a plane where the engine cuts out and the stukas are passing you, so I dont see that as a viable setup.

When the allies have the advantage, tends to be the f4u1, the ijn tends to have the ki61.  Which I believe is a fine match for the f4u1.  Handles better, can dive with the f4u1, and has great low speed handling and acceleration to boot.

Didnt we just have a map that was yak9ts vs g10s cause that was the realistic matchup?  I dont remember a whole lot of squeaking then.

[CurtissP-6EHawk]

You guys mind if I say something? I do still rather enjoy reading this stuff.

I have to agree with what Hazed is saying, to a point. If it wasn't there, dont use it. If it was there, but in low quantities, perk it to a point were it is not abused.

A while back when the F4U got removed from a nice set-up. It was at rear bases. If it had been perked, it would not have been abused.

Then the CMs run into the problem of being able to perk the planes for only a weeks set-up.

I would have much rather seen two or three week set-ups like this. It would give guys a chance to earn perks for thier rides of choice. Then you have to worry about how perk tallies would be abused. Fly the better country to build perks then switch to the country with the better perked fighter.

Oh, I guess that is what AH II is gonna be for.

[Halo]

These threads are great when everyone is so cooperative and genuinely trying to find the best solutions with what vehicles are available.

CT participants are pretty savvy and fair-minded, so in the future why not again ask participants to observe throttle and/or other limitations on planes that otherwise are a bit too uber for the earlier birds they simulate?  Can be done easily in the initial rule box.  

Same for please don't dogfight or divebomb the bomber if that also is applicable.  I remember getting that request almost from the beginning in the more historical scenarios.  

Of course if we're going to get THAT sincere, I would have to ask that C-47s release paratroopers and supplies from horizontal flight rather than the super sport sudden climb and jettison.

[hazed-]

I must just point out something for ergRTC,

I took time yesterday to go through my books to see what 109s were in North Africa in 1941/1942 and you DO indeed have some 109E-4's in the area. I didnt think they would have used them but there you are i was wrong.

heres a quote from 'Bf109 the operational record' by jerry scutts:

"I./ JG27 remained in Libya while II and III Gruppen had also in the meantime, been alerted for duty in the desert.They transfered respectively in spetember and december 1941,II Gruppe having by then spent some three months in Russia.In the meantime, the nomadic 7./ JG26 had become more familiar with Gela, Sicily and had breifly served alongside I. / JG27 before returning to france inaugust.During its time overseas, the 'Red Heart Staffel' had been outstandingly successful and had scored 52 kills without losing a single aircraft in combat.
  The already diverse list of Allied aircraft opposing the Jagdfliegern over the desert was increased further in JUNE 1941 when the first P40 B/C Warhawks and P40 D/E Kittyhawks operated by RAF squadrons, were encountered.Neither American fighter, though well armed and armoured, gave the desert Experten too much trouble- in fact their victory claims and combat reports began to include the word 'Curtiss' (the Germans universal generic term irrespective of the correct sub-type) with increasing regularity!.
  Things on the RAF side slowly improved however and Germans' understandable failure to distinguish readily the finer points of early and later model P-40s could work against them.The P-40E for example had six .50-in machine guns against the .303s installed in the P40B and as pilot experience built up, so the allies could count much more on the Kittyhawk, even in a dogfight with 109s. But the Bf 109 itself was about to be improved as far as the desert jagdfliegern were concerned.The lull in the ground war that extended into the autumn of 1941 allowed I./ JG27 to dispatch a staffel at a time back to Germany to re-equip with the Bf 109F-2/Trop."

So as you can see the 109E-4's did indeed fight P40Bs and P40E's but of the RAF not USA's squadrons which came later in 1942. Basically the setup IS authentic if it models the mid 1941- but from september/October 1941 the bf109E-4s were phased out (replaced with 109F's) .A four month period.

So my appologies for calling it unhistorical.

P.S. Perhaps as a compromise you would consider putting the 109F-4 in as a High priced perk. Make it very hard to afford and id agree to it being fair.

Just as another snippit of info you might be interested in and as a possible high priced perk for the Allied side:

after operation Crusader by the allies in november 1941 they made substantial gains but it ran out of steam and the Germans took back much of the gains by February 1942.The axis emphasis swung again to contain malta and in march 1942 the first spitfire V's were introduced.heres the snippet from same book as above:

'Neither did the newly arrived spitfires, the supposed master of the 109, give much trouble.Pitted against the Mk V, the Bf109F often came off best, particularly as at that stage ,the RAF pilots were not generally very experienced.Germany was however, never able to fully exploit any gains in the Mediteranean after the start of the campaign in the East.'

Id need to find some evidence of spitfir V's being in libya in order for it to qualify as a possible perk ride but I'd take a gamble and guess they did fly there atsome point in early 1942.Maybe some Allied fans can dig up the info.Then again you have it historical already and no doubt dont want to add 109F or spitV even as high perks?

anyhow thought id best own up to being wrong hehe

[Squire]

The P-40D/E (Kittyhawk) was in service with the RAF @ Dec 1941, with 112 RAF and 3 Sqn RAAF to start with. The earlier B model (Tomahawk) like you say, was @June 1941 and into 1942.

As with all combat types, the change over is gradual, case in point, by the end of 1942, most Spit squadrons in the RAF flew Vs not IXs, and most 109 units had 109Fs, not G2s. Just an example.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Squire
The P-40D/E (Kittyhawk) was in service with the RAF @ Dec 1941, with 112 RAF and 3 Sqn RAAF to start with. The earlier B model (Tomahawk) like you say, was @June 1941 and into 1942.
 

Ah i see my 109 book didnt go into the actual dates for the different P40 marks. Its too focused on the 109 records i guess.

So basically From june 1941 likely match ups would have been 109E-4s vs hurricane I and P40B/C's Then as we pass through autumn the 109F's started to replace the 109E's but then in December the P40 D/E's arrived and started to replace P40B's.At this time operation Crusade was pushing the Germans back.If im not mistaken , which i may be the HurricaneIIC was in service in North Africa in 1941-42 so at some point this arrived too. by March 1942 things had swung back again.Around this time the RAF was introducing the spit VB / VC's to malta.

quite an interesting period it seems for aircombats.

[ergRTC]

yep.  interesting.

[CurtissP-6EHawk]

Nice work Hazed.

Jester did say late 41', so how hard could it be for HTC to apoint someone to adjust perks for each week?

Perk the Peggy....remove bomber "flight" mode

[Jester]

In reguards to the 109 comment - the ME-109 "Emil" fought long into 1943 as part of "Schlachtgeschwader's" (or Fighter/Bomber units) in N. Africa & Russia after they had been replaced by the F & G models in the Fighter role.