P-38 turn radius

[Captain Krunch]

First a statement, then a question...

The P-38 may have plenty of strengths but how in the world can turn radius be one of them????

No matter what version of P-38 you look at it has miserable wing loading.  In fact I don't think there is a prop fighter in ANY air force that had worse wing loading that the 38.  
 
P-38 F = 48.55 lbs
P-38 J/L = 53.44 lbs

In fact it's so bad that as far as I know it's one of the few craft that required, "maneuvering flaps" just to get it's nose around during combat.

When you compare it to planes like the A6m5 (26.38 lbs wing loading), Spit 9e (31 lbs wind loading) or even the ultra fat 109K-4 (39.45 lbs wing loading) it just doesn't match up.

How can the P-38 be considered anything but a dog in the turn radius dept?  Occasionally I run across unsuported or anecdotal statements claiming the 38 was an excellent turning plane.  

What gives?

[Jochen]

I too wondered how P-38 can turn so well when I first saw those wingloading figures.

There was some good information about P-38 in iEN's board last week.

The idea I got was that while wingloading gives an general idea of turning ability, it is not the only decisive factor. In P-38 case high lift wing profile, counter rotating props (they negate torque) and blown control surfaces help P-38 turn better than bare wingloading indicates.

Maybe someone who really knows about this issue can give us an better idea?

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Obfr. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'

[DRAHN]

I am by no means a 38 expert, but have read somewhere, that one of the tricks used by said jocks was to chop throttle on 1 engine then stand hard on the rudder in the direction of which ever engine was chopped. Supposedly, the 38 would literally fly backwards. If this is true, note I said if, then wing loading as such might be taken out of the equation. Food for thought.

DRAHN

[-ik-]

The P-38's wing had an extremly high aspect ratio which made for very little drag, which thus gave it a much better than you'd think turn. Where's wells when you need him?

btw, make sure you don't confuse turn radius with turn rate.

[Vila]

OMIGOD.... a new sim, a new P-38 debate  

Well, whatever it flies like, I'll probably fly it...at least a bit.  I have a sentimental attachment to the old gal.

Vila

[Captain Krunch]

Drahn, I bet that's what I keep hearing about.  If you cut one engine while you hard rudder I bet you could accomplish a really tight "turn."  HOWEVER... that's gotta bleed E like a mutha!  I don't think that's the kind of maneuver a pilot would do unless he's in big trouble or has a major advantage.  Talk about speed reduction.  A plane flying nearly sideways isn't exactly aerodynamic. <g>

[DRAHN]

Well Capt. Krunch, that came from doing some reading up on the KI-45 Nick, btw depressing as heck, it seemed to have nice potential, but that came from a Japenese KI-45 pilot describing how he was shot down by a P-38. Apparently the 38 was already on the 6 of 1 Nick, filling his tail with .50 calibre party mix, when Nick 2 dove in on the 6 of 38, throwing 37mm tennis balls by his canopy. I gathered this sorta upset the 38 pilot who in turn made a rather desperate move to o bigtoeer a desperate situation. As the story goes, the 38's bullet stream found the right wing root seperating wing from fuselage, then proceeded to run down Nick 1 supposedly getting both.

DRAHN

[-towd_]

i have a freind here who was in marines and told me of a day in pac theater that he and his squad had to clime a mountain on one of the nameless islans to see if a anyone had survived a crash landing on top of said mountain. (only pilot out of 4 did and he was out for the duration with check in mail for life)

he said while they were there he witnessed a large 15 to 20 total plane dogfight 38s but type unknown he was a jar head and zekes. he said in 5 min all zekes pilot had become marters for ijn and not a mark on a 38.

i tried to figure out what tactics the 38s used from him he said "they just danced round and round till zekes got it i the ass"

towd
 

[hitech]

One of the primary resone the p38 has a small turn radius as compared to other planes is do prop wash over the wings.

This realy has a big  effect in two ways.

One no nasty tendancy to drop wings do to vortex effect when slow and full power.

2nd The prop wash generates substantial lift.

HiTech

[wells]

A high lifting airfoil that produces more lift is one reason (which has the negative effect of reaching compression sooner), the propwash (the props span about 50% of the wing, compared to 25% for a normal single engined fighter) and the booms help a bit too.  The booms help to keep some of the airflow from flowing spanwise under the wing.

The high aspect ratio wing reduces the induced drag, which is the majority of drag in a tight turn.  That allows the P-38 to fly the circle a bit faster than it would if it's wing were of lower aspect ratio.

The flaps, being of fowler type, increase the wing area some 40 sq ft.

[Captain Krunch]

very very interesting,

thanks for posting.