Author Topic: Something interesting about Fw190s...  (Read 1873 times)

Offline Maverick

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2003, 01:57:33 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
There is lag in cable control over rod control, as there is always some stretch in the cable.


There is no lag in control cable setups as long as the cable is tensioned properly. Cable tension as specified in the maintenance manual is easy to maintain and necessary to keep controls indexed properly. As an example a Piper Warrior uses a cable tension of 35 to 45 pounds for ailerons. A second consideration is that cable systems tend to have "lighter" control pressures, meaning less effort required to move the controls. Cables of various diameters are used depending on control forces expected by the AC in flight.

The advent of boosted controls eased the pilots workolad as the higher the speed the heavier the controls. Lighter, faster responding controls means greater maneuverability. Using a modern competition aerobatic plane as a comparison to a WW2 warbird is invalid due to speed, weight of AC, no ordinance on competition bird as well as range and HP of engine. They are really apples and kumquats. They aren't even close enough for the oranges comparison.
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Offline ccvi

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2003, 02:22:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
i think the "nose bounce" in AH is do to pilot induced oscillation.


PIOs are no longer called PIOs since it has been discovered quite some time ago that they're in fact APC (aircraft-pilot-coupling). There cannot be coupling between the player and a virtual aircraft.

Offline ccvi

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2003, 02:30:24 PM »
Oh, and if you're actually going to remodel the 190, can you please check if it's flying nose down enough? Visibility over the nose isn't as bad as in other games, but still it feels like if it is flying nose up not down when level.

Offline Bodhi

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2003, 03:00:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
...Cable tension as specified in the maintenance manual is easy to maintain...


Mav, not to be rude, but when is the last time you tensioned the aileron cables in say, a P-51, or better yet a P-38.  Even the SNJ / T-6 is a pain in the arse.  

Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
...Using a modern competition aerobatic plane as a comparison to a WW2 warbird is invalid due to speed, weight of AC, no ordinance on competition bird as well as range and HP of engine. They are really apples and kumquats. They aren't even close enough for the oranges comparison.


The comparison was used to show the massive amount of difference between forces and setups between the two systems, not to show them in the same light...  read through it again...

THanks,

Bodhi
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Offline Bodhi

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2003, 03:31:51 PM »
Hazed,

The lag you are trying to get a feel for is not really lag in so much as it is slack in the control cables (induced by constant forces being exerted).  

To look at it simply, imagine a 190 or F4u with rod controls sitting on the ground.  You move the stick left to right a few times, and the response will seem crisp and very responsive, because of the "direct" linkage with no stretch involved.  Now imagine the same situation in say a T-6 or 109.  The same response will be there, if the control cables are in tension.  If there is slack, there will be a bit of lag, but that can be really a bad situation, if over tightened, thats bad too, but the lag will not exist and in some cases the force may be required more to move them if overtightened.

 Anyways, now imagine the 190 or F4u, under speed.  and you apply the aileron movement, the force required will be more so, as there is force reacting against your movements, but their is no lag what so ever, unless you count weak force application on the stick.  Now hop back over to the 109 or T-6 and apply aileron movement as well.  The force required and response should be the same if the cables are tensioned properly.  Now if higher speeds are encountered, the possibility that the force required to move the control surface may be so great, that you can not exert enough to successfully move it, and yet may feel a little mnovement in the stick, this is due to the stretching of cables, as the bell cranks and pulleys attached to the stick act as a lever and allow you to apply so much force that you are actually slightly stretching the cable.  That is the talk of lag I believe you are hearing... it is less prominent in fighters and much more so in the larger aircraft such as bombers... where the cables ran over much longer distances and where subject to more stresses due to their runs.  This is mostly evident in the warbirds, even less so today.  As for todays Warriors (civilian aircraft) and jets still using cables for controls, the systems benefit from design advances and the fact that they generally are under more checks and balances then the average warbird operator.  That does not mean warbirds are less safe, it's just that most IA's and A+P's have no clue when it comes to the operation of a warbird system.  

As for the oscillation of the nose in AH, that seems to be more pilot induced, and setting your stick forces to what you like and get used to can greatly reduce and / or eliminate the oscillations almost entirely.  

As for the lack of adjustable inflight trim on the FW in the real world vs. the AH FW needing trimmming it seems to me that that is a case that this is a game, and as such, it can not be the same as the real world.  WHile I feel it is the best attempt at a real world in WW2 it is a game none the less.  This could change in AH2, and that is a question best asked to Dale, as he, and he alone can answer what will and is feasible to be programmed.  In the end though, the minute amount of true data that exists has to be the problem in ever getting it 100% accurate.  With the only possibility of doing so is getting an individual to allow you to up their real life FW and then, the PILOT coming back and programming it exactly the way it was experienced, and then that can not be accurate, because no real world operator is going to run 140 octane with methanol boost through his FW190 as the risks of damage to an irreplacable engine is too great.  

Hope this is of some help, I in no way meant it to be rude, so no one need take it that way.  There are plenty of others out there that probably can explain it better than I, and I am by no means the authority, just have been working on warbirds for the past 12 years.

Have a good weekend all.
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Offline ccvi

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2003, 03:54:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
... WHile I feel it is the best attempt at a real world in WW2 it is a game none the less.  This could change in AH2, and that is a question best asked to Dale,...


Oh, noooo!! Please don't change that!


(sorry for quoting out of context :p )

Offline john9001

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2003, 04:03:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ccvi
PIOs are no longer called PIOs since it has been discovered quite some time ago that they're in fact APC (aircraft-pilot-coupling). There cannot be coupling between the player and a virtual aircraft.


well , you call it what you want , but it is 'over correction"

" too low , back on stick ...opps too high , push down ...opps too low, pull up....oppps too high , push down ....opps too low , pull up ...@#$%& this damm airplane can't fly straight, must be the slack cables.

Offline MrCoffee

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2003, 04:17:21 PM »
I havent flown AH since spring last year but now that I think about it, while flying around the nose is sorta bouncey. However I have never noticed the nose having a bouncey problem during my fights with other planes. Maybe I just never notice but Im sure it never has gotten in the way. I always trim prior to combat and I try to fight within the 190s performance envelope. Also I try to keep the tangos time short because 190s bleed energy very badly. If I were to take an estimated guess, would say my average tangos last about 30 seconds to a minute I think.

Reason is that enemy is killed, Im killed, or being chased by angry spitfires etc...

190As are not terribly fast so one needs a head start.

:)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2003, 04:24:16 PM by MrCoffee »

Offline straffo

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Re: Re: Re: Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2003, 04:41:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by funkedup
Ya know if any of you would bother to pick up an elementary book on aeronautics and flight mechanics, all these apparent mysteries would become clear.


Thread porker !
It was an interresting electronic diarrhea before your non-constructive post !

blerch !




my excuse : it's sat. about 23:45 and ...  I need badly to sleep ;)

Offline MrCoffee

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2003, 04:54:17 PM »
If someone is experiencing nose bounce problems, I believe what is happening is that in the case of the 190 pilot, he has over extended his combat time and has lose too much speed. He simply needs to retrim that nose and take the extra risks of fighting in a 190 at slower speeds, which is the envelope of Spit Vs, Zeros, Nikis etc...

Offline hazed-

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2003, 06:54:35 PM »
thanks bohdi I see why it cant be really worth putting in AH. I didnt take offence at all it was a straightforward answer that made me think 'ahhh of course' :)

Theres no point i modelling a worn or stretched cable its only fair that we fly these aircraft modeled in their factory fresh condition. In which case if i understand you correctly there would be little to choose between a 190with control rods and say for arguements sake a 190 with wires that is tensioned correctly.Only after excessive use will the wire one get loose. AH should model it as new and therefore it should feel the same for all.


As for the oscillation of the nose Im actually talking about when auto pilot is ENGAGED and player unput is removed from the equation. I know what you mean concerning nose bounce produced by players whackig their joystick around too much and this I understand, whatim talking about is the way they seem to behave or respond very slowly to the auto level/Auto climb etc commands.
I only mentioned nose bounce earlier to decribe the sloppy feel the 190s have compared to some others and i asked if anyone felt the F4U does the same. I took this as a quirk of the 190 aircraft (remember if it was all down to me over inputing/correcting my moves, it, in theory, should happen to any aircraft i use). And i have been flying AH for 3 years so Im pretty used to it feel wise. When i read this about how Kurt tank found he had produced a very stable aircraft with hardly the need for manual trim I questioned that sloppy bounce on the 190s for the first time if you see what i mean.Also as on the Tv programme i thought some of the stunt planes had a very 190 look :D hehe got me thinking :) ok they arent the same i know but just for me take up a ta152 when you next go on Bohdi and test the auto climb and level and try some maneuvers paying attention to the yaw/pitch/roll of the nose, then take up a P51 or maybe the F4u and do similar stuff.See if you notice it too.If not i guess its just me lol! :)

anyhow thnx for answers.

Offline MANDOBLE

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2003, 08:56:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MrCoffee
If someone is experiencing nose bounce problems,


No, no nose bounce at all with 190, and this is my main ride for months. But, in the other hand, 190 control response is 100% dependant on trim at any speed, mainly at low speeds.

The only excesive nose bounce I've found is with 262, radically exagerated.

Offline MrCoffee

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2003, 09:16:20 PM »
Hazed, in regards to auto pilot trim or as its called "combat trim" in AH. I never use it, ever. Used to just set trim for altitude but I found it unsatisfactory as it took forever and never set trim the way I wanted it. Well it used to then at some point in time it stoped setting ideal trim. At that point, it began to set less that perfect trim so I think or believe. Nevertheless, I never use combat trim, not even mapped to my joystick because its evil.  I do use "auto angle" set to climb out from base and "auto level" to cruise to the target area if thats the autopilot your refering to.

Offline Regurge

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2003, 09:28:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDOBLE
In AH, 190s control response is fully dependent on trimming at any speed. So, when I trim my 190 fully nose down, pulling back the stick has little effect, pushing down the stick has great effect, and viceversa. Same for ailerons and rudder.


You may need to calibrate your joystick with the in-game calibration tool. For every plane in AH, full back stick should cause a stall or blackout regardless of elevator trim (except at very high speeds).

Offline MANDOBLE

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Something interesting about Fw190s...
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2003, 09:37:32 PM »
Regurge, these effects are not related at all with the problem described, in fact, your coment doesnt apply for most planes at any speed, except spit, typhs and few more.