Sunday SO - Attrition and resupply system - Discussion

[lucull]

My feedback is, that this is a one life, one plane event and what ever you suggest to change to what we have now, it means extra work for CM and/or CiC.

What we had before was, that the design (by CM) gave the CiC a planeset which he had to use. If you want a shift by victory conditions it would also be possible by the planeset the CM gives the CiC.

What you suggest is no change IMO to what we had. The question is: do we want an unbalanced planeset based on what ever you think of?
I say no. I don't like the idea. The reason why the system we tried had no impact was (fortunenatly) that it didn't change much.
It was just more work for CM and CiC.

I don't know how many would want to take advantage of it, since after all, very few people ever make it back when damaged. But those that do are special pilots.. takes alot of effort to keep a damaged ship airborne, let alone even land it...

I know that every pilot out of my squad will always try to get home/near home in every condition you can think of. This is a question of spirit and attitude and not of a complicate system.
Personally, I hate people that are damaged and keep on fighting, just to get maybe another kill instead of (maybe) making it home like every WW2 pilot would have tried. (this is SEA and not MA; this is a squad event and not walkon event)
Normally, fighting is 1-1.5 hours. It is tactically not very smart to let people fly alone and possibly let them been jumped by higher numbers of enemies. This would never happen IRL afaik.

With a well designed event, you can have real fun with the oldie but goldie system we have.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by lucull

If you can't estimate the numbers, you can't work with this. Remember Niemen. Most groups had less numbers then expected and could loose all their A/C in a frame and still had enough to fly 1st line A/C.

 

Infact two groups lost full access to front line planes in the final frame of Niemen..............two groups lost all access to GV's in the final frame............

And the fact that attrition was in place totally stopped suicide flights in Niemen and made CO's concider only those tactics that did not waste  rides.

When Niemen style attrition is run again (and it will be) the start number and supply rate will be appropriately modified but not by much.

What was tried here was not the same model that was run in Niemen.

[lucull]

Originally posted by Tilt
Infact two groups lost full access to front line planes in the final frame of Niemen..............two groups lost all access to GV's in the final frame............

And the fact that attrition was in place totally stopped suicide flights in Niemen and made CO's concider only those tactics that did not waste  rides.

When Niemen style attrition is run again (and it will be) the start number and supply rate will be appropriately modified but not by much.

What was tried here was not the same model that was run in Niemen.

You designed Niemen, right?
Well, 2 groups out of how many? 10? 20? Not an impact.
Attrition stopped suicide flights? In frame 3 funkedup said that we could loose all A/Cs and would still fly/drive what ever we want in last frame. Doesn't that mean the system failed it's objective?
You are right, it wasn't the same what we used here, but something similiar was suggested in this thread (that's why I said the thing above). Your system works if the expected numbers show up, but they didn't in Niemen. If you have less players, your system doesn't work just as the point system doesn't work. Points or numbers of A/C ... isn't it the same basically?

I like planeset given by design/CM to controll that each side has an equal chance. Keep it simple stupid and all have fun. Normal players don't care about attrittion or anything we (will) discuss here. That' what I think.

[ramzey]

Frankly im tired by all those experimets, old system work well and i not see reasons to change them.
Rules in rules doing all more complicated not for players but for CiC.

Old system has simply and clear rules for everyone.
1 CM give objectives and planeset for every frame
2. CiC prepare plan
3. Players fly to full fil duty, take som fight, destroy something and if possibly rtb. All with rule "shut up and fly".

Squads follow orders cuz time to time somone must fly bombers or fly boring defence CAP . Squad CO duty was take command over frame and prepare battle plan time to time.
All objectives depends from A-A or A-G missions.

With last improvemnet we got
1. SOps closing in style to CAP or MA
2. More worry and work for CiC about  battle plan
3. Not obey units
4. MA dweebish behvior "if we can get same points killing enemy, we not must worry about rtb, we get this points anyway".
5. Not balanced planeset /mostly on bombers last frame/

I see here more bad things then good.

If we can have old system with inscription "CiC must use every type/group of planes for not less then one unit" We will have topic about planeset done.
Plus obvious rotation, if one squad fly bombers in first frame, he will no more fly bombers/jabo in this tour.

System we tried last tour promote bigger squadrons and can work only if 100% registered peoples show up. Obvious is squadrons who will loose lots of point and will be pushed to 3rd line aircrafts, will not have same numbers as first frame when he have full poins. And thats we saw in 3rd frame of last SOps.

I decide to share my own squadronpoint to give peoples chance to fly 2nd line aircrafts and keep forces capable to make strike and give resistance for enemy.

First frame show to much "free" space for plane choise by squoadron liders, who can ruin whole plan. All thats beucose somone will like to save points for other frame.

3rd frame show whats happend if squad will not agree to fly thier duty and spend his points for first line fighters.

If behaviour like this will grove up we will have MA on SEA, everyone will fly like they like and not care/look on over all battle plan and objectives.
If one squadron get order to take strike planes / for 1 points each/ loosing them by other squadron foult. Who have order to cover them and fail. Or by CiC who not give fighters to cover  bombers/strike planes. Will loose most of they ponts not getting single kill.
Due lack of points, even with resupply points he stuck on secound line/or 3rd/ aircrafts. And resonable commander who see, they cant match enemy planes performance.  Will drop them in to jabo or strike/bomber duty again. Cuz other squadrons earn kills and point and are still able to fly first line aircrafts.
Thats mean squadron who take "light" duty/mission in first frame will be "to imporand" and noone will like them to fly cheap strike planes .

Squadrons skills and behaviour are diferent , somtime depends from luck and "have good or bad day". Somotimes squadron  fight in really bad situation outnumbered or must sucrifice yourself to full fill duty.
System we taste it penalise for that without reasons and not give secound chance.
It was not work during test tour and even with improvements will not work. WB is in this case difrent game and copy of his system with "personal" touch will not work.

Do u like to have it here ? im not


About replane or secound life.

@Viff , "fog of war" have here much wider definition then in RL;)

I not see any reason to give anyone secound chance to take off if he loose his aircraft. In RL noone will give pilot fly if he back on damaged airplane if he is not A.Galland or any other "great " pilot.
Even if examples of such behaviour exist, u can put it in to fairy stories. Its was not work for all
Event is simulation of air battle who endure limited time.
During this time is no chance to get back in air after "little" damage like oil leak or fuel leak. How can u proof thats small damage not need change whole cooling system? Its not garden hose who u can repair by duck tape.
Other storie is noone of pilots will be lunch in air again without investigatin about his damages.
Anyway how can u prove u not have wounded pilot? Som peoples u can belive by his word. Som not.
What if we get cheater, who take off again and his "battle luck" can prevail victory or loose by one side?
Punish him after event? lol

ramzey