explain this please.....

[hazed-]

Ok can someone explain this:

I dive on a P51D whos attacking a base , we both dive at top speed and he slowly creeps away ahead of me for a LONG time in a powered dive. I start to shake and rattle and trim myself as the speeds hit the limit and i start to lock up. The P51D steadily pulls away ahead and below me.

Suddenly I see rockets fired off and 2 huge explosions as he drops on the hangers!!

This P51D with 2x1000lb bombs and six rockets attached dived to over 600 mph without ANY problems??????

surely in real life there was SOME sort of limit to how fast you can drop ordinance?

Surely its not above the maximum dive speed of a 190D-9 in a power dive from some 20k!?!?!

This has to be bull****. If a P51D with all that ordinace has less induced drag and a better stability(no nose shake etc) in a dive, is more stable than a 190D-9 CLEAN at that speed and was capable of superior dive speed even FULLY loaded Im a monkeys uncle!!!!!! surely this is utter nonsense on the part of the FM?????????

sheesh! I actually seemed to catch the p51 AFTER he dropped the ordinace and was pulling out of his dive but i had trimmed to a shallower angle to cut his curved path. He also made a break turn when he could have left me for dead in a level egress but thankfully he didnt. I was cursing AH at the time though thinking this was the last straw

ah well , Its exactly how it was in WW2 i guess??? 650mph+ p51s dropping 3000lbs of ordinace as they rolled and looped like stunt pilots right? behind those silly 190s all locked up and hit the pavement!

hmmm got a banana for my Nephew then????????

[jjdude]

eh, who knows if it could of happened in real life, how many ww2 pilots do you know thatd have the balls to try a crazy stunt like that in real life?

[bfreek]

not BS ...its a game. And not real life.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by jjdude
eh, who knows if it could of happened in real life, how many ww2 pilots do you know thatd have the balls to try a crazy stunt like that in real life?

its not the point that they wouldnt have tried it , its the point of structural strength and the huge amounts of drag caused by external weapons.

Now i dont know about you but i have my suspicions if you dived at over 650 mph with those rockets on the wings the things would rip your wingtips off. With all the vibrations caused by the disturbed airflow.At the very leaset i would bet it wouldnt be a very smooth ride!

I would also suspect the extra drag would reduce top speeds in dives.I may be wrong but it just seems rediculous to me the Germans would build an aircraft that is incapable of catching a fully laden enemy fighter in a dive at top mach numbers. It wasnt that the P51 had much advantage as i started the chase either, I was almost matching the speed initially as i closed a few yards then i began to shake and trimmed myself out as he steadily and rapidly left me behind. I assumed he was clever and dropping out to extend and zoom climb but to my shock he went right on down to the ground.I was shaking and creaking like i was about to lose my wings, when i saw the P51's rockets go off and as i started to shallow the dive using trim two large explosions on the hanger!.he pulled up at a steep enough angle for me to 'cut the corner' then but had he extended i would never have even got close.

This guy had the whole set of weapons loadout! he outdived a fully trimmed out 190D-9 at top speed. Not only that it sustained that speed for tens of thousands of feet and pulled out, unlike what would have happened to my 190D-9 had i continued to follow.I had to use trim to get any return from my attempts to roll slighlty and this guy is lobing bombs and rockets around and going from a near 80 degree dive to a near 60 degree climb when im struggling to get a few degrees of elevator authority and having to use a touch of trim to help ease the nose up???

come on??

This isnt whining, it's just exasperation!  I cant believe what i saw. If someone could show me a reference to high speed dive limits on speeds that make this all ok then post them please!! no really please do. maybe a bomb dropping document that states theres no limit to the speed the bombs can be dropped at? A document showing the rockets could be fired and flown at the maximum dive speeds? perhaps while they are at it they could show me why the 190D-9 cannot keep accelerating in a power dive as fast as the P51D can fully laden with external stores.
We seem to have restrictions on the deployment of all the other stuff, axis type torpedoes etc, isnt there limits for almost any weapon hung externally? I would guess they all have some sort of limit.

HTC please fix it somehow?.(If it needs fixing of course)

[jjdude]

Now i dont know about you but i have my suspicions if you dived at over 650 mph with those rockets on the wings the things would rip your wingtips off. With all the vibrations caused by the disturbed airflow.At the very leaset i would bet it wouldnt be a very smooth ride!

oh i agree with you 100% but theres no real way to test it other that real life experience, and i dont know many people who would want to test it.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by jjdude
oh i agree with you 100% but theres no real way to test it other that real life experience, and i dont know many people who would want to test it.

ahh i see your point


well ok then i guess we might have to just accept it isnt likely to be possible. So may i be the first to request something be added to AH in order to limit this type of fight model behaviour.If theres no real way to 'know' then surely we could come up with some figures which would suggest the limits that would be expected?

If we are just going to leave it and not change it then why are we bothering to limit torpedoes to 100foot hieight, lower than 200 mph drop speeds? seems to me the one weapon which could use a little realism relaxing its the torpedoes.They are the hardest weapon to aim in AH apart from possibly the wr21's, they need timing controlled flying, huge amounts of luck and generally even when you hit you need to do it twice!.
Id like to see all weapons have their limits to 'use' really if i was asked... Level bombers for instance had bomb racks that used to cause bomb 'hang-ups' even when dropped from a perfectly level flightpath. Most rockets had a limit to the speed at which they could be fired.(It would appear from AH's model that torpedoes did also), i have a suspicion bombs on fighters may have had certain limits, they certainly had detremental effects on top speeds, service ceilings and climbrates so what about dive speeds?
In AH a level bomber can drop bombs then fly right through those falling bombs, it can drop vertically or even upside-down. Fighters can dive until their wings rip off but still drop their bomb before they hit..and now I see some planes can dive faster WITH bombs than some can without even though they are similar in performance and of the same timeframe.

Loses the reality of this game which is its no'1 selling point for me when i began to play. (No.2 was 'more people online' as I was new to online games back then). The thought that these planes are producing similar results with the model as the real planes, i.e. what we do everyday is learn the sort of manouvers they did and used, is what makes me stay with it. If I start to feel its too far from the real thing it loses its appeal. sorry but thats how i feel.

[F4UDOA]

Hazed,

Most aircraft had limits with ordinance on board. Most if not all AH aircraft do not have srtuctural failures whe these restrictions are exceeded. Mostly because the real aircraft would not fall apart when the restrictions are exceeded.

The question is could the aircraft reach that high speed with the extra drag attached.

Here is the P-51D-1 manual.

The altitude for these restrictions is 10,000ft. It is on another page of the manual.

[devious]

Uuuuh, 400 mph is even slower than dora lockup-speed, which according to Kurt is PORKED in AH.

BTW I still don`t understand why the A series Fw can dive faster than D in AH.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Originally posted by hazed-

ah well , Its exactly how it was in WW2 i guess??? 650mph+ p51s dropping 3000lbs of ordinace as they rolled and looped like stunt pilots right? behind those silly 190s all locked up and hit the pavement!

 [/B]

Hey Cheer up papas ... If I would have tried to follow you in a jug I would have compressed before both of you AND would have only follow your icons with binoculars:D

[hazed-]

Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Hey Cheer up papas ... If I would have tried to follow you in a jug I would have compressed before both of you AND would have only follow your icons with binoculars:D

really frenchy? is the P47 worse than both of these? I thought the P47 could also dive fully loaded to silly speeds but i have to admit I assumed this rather than seeing or doing it.

What Im looking at lately while im playing is things like this. I have started to get that old feeling back of frustration while playing and I really can put it down to a single change in the way AH is played by the majority of players.

It simple when you realise that the most common times you will get annoyed at the game is when you see behaviour that doesnt seem to fit. By that I mean you either see a blatent contradiction of things you read about while observing the enemy planes flying around you or worse still it is the actual PLAYER using the loop holes in the model to gain advantage, or 'game the game'.

Now I realise this is inevitable, that the general public will discover all the 'loopholes and bugs etc and invariably it will get used and so I think we need to control this sort of thing by means of limitations (REALISTIC and ACCURATE limitations of course, not just to control players preferred behaviour).

its pretty straight forward but we need to address these things as the behaviour in the MA shifts around and becomes a bit problematic!,(like dive bombing lancs and b17s).We need to stop the suicidal dive bomb types in my opinion but I stress im not asking for unrealistic change, like it has been shown by frenchies reply there were limits to certain moves which overstressed the aircraft or caused the bomb mechanism to fail and if we added them it could avoid the big problem as i see it of 'gamey behaviour'.No more vertical dropping of bombs for aircraft that had bombracks that couldnt be used in that way.Limits on the speeds you can attain in steep dives while loaded with ordinance.(With the new 10 point wing model im hoping we will see much more realistic structural failures which would cover this posts problem in one go).

there plenty more things we do in AH that are 'gamey'. (ever landed at a vehicle base to sneak a safe landing? ) and how many times had you landed at a deacked enemy base to escape a loss??? We all do it to a certain ammount, I know i have been guilty of this last one. HTC stopped it in one hit by making it a capture instead of a safelanding.Hey presto we see more players trying to get back to their own territory before they ditch or land.
The 'gamey' aspect is removed , our behaviour changes and hopefully for the better which closely matches thereal counter parts in WW2.

after all, isnt this really why we come to AH? it is for me.

[hazed-]

any chance someone could do the math and work out if its behaving wrong? better still do some tests in AH and work it out if its got some bug somewhere? Id do it but i dont know what the ordinance would/wouldnt cause, only my guess that it seems wrong.

[john9001]

hazed is right , no way a american junk airplane could out fly a LW super plane, it's just redicules,

BTW all american A/C were stolen kurt tank designs.

[BenDover]

Stop calling me Shurly.