Capturing Fields: Opinions Wanted

[Rude]

Originally posted by muckmaw
I flew Air Warrior from the AOL days until about 2-3 years ago.

I don't think any one thing makes AH successful, but any one thing can be a game killer.

With that in mind, I doubt AH could have grown if field capture as well as the many other aspects of AH from graphics to customer support were not at least satisfactory.

It could also be that AH is the last stop for guys with low end machines. Who really knows. The point is, the game must be working at least well enough to attract and maintain new and old customers. This is something neither AW nor WBs could do.

AW's life ran for many years....it's demise had nothing to do with the method of field capture, but rather the neglect shown by it's owners....still, let's agree to disagree.

I understand how someone such as yourself who enjoys the large mission type style of gameplay would not percieve anything to be amiss.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by rshubert
The extra 10 miles takes less than 2 minutes at 300 mph.

No, the extra 10 miles would take exactly two minutes at 300mph.  However, you fail to account for a number of things.  For instance:

(1)  The Spit V cruises at around 280mph.  That's typically after diving to get up to speed.  It takes substantially longer to accelerate to that speed in a straight line.  This means that 10 miles require about 2.14 minutes to travel.  Other planes cruise even more slowly, especially early warbirds.

(2)  The Spit V autoclimbs 3.5k/minute @ 160mph at sea level.  If one autoclimbs into the fight, it takes 3.75 minutes to travel the extra 10 miles.

Figure therefore at least some variation of between 2.14 and 3.75 minutes to go the extra 10 miles for a Spit V.  The former takes less time but puts one at exactly the altitude disadvantage you mentioned appearing on maps with closer bases.  The latter takes quite a bit longer but compensates with higher altitude.

Now let's figure that the studious Spitfire pilot flies both to and from the enemy base, making the extra distance 20 miles (almost an entire sector) rather than 10 miles.  Now he faces trip times ranging from roughly 4.28 extra minutes to 7.5 extra minutes.  If, throughout the course of the evening, he flies ten sorties to and from this enemy base, you're looking at between 42.8 and 75 minutes of extra flight time because of those extra 10 miles.  That's empty time with nothing to do but climb or travel.  It's wasted time.  It breeds boredom.

That's why so many people hate it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by muckmaw
There's one problem with your argument, Rude.

AW..OUt of business
WB's...200 subscribers?
AH (The early years) Much less subscriptions than it has now.

You seriously can't be trying to say that as a result of having an easy field capture system is what caused AW to go under, WB to experience its current woes and why AH didn't have a large player base in the early years.  

If you are, then maybe what the say about MAW IQ isn't too far off the bat.


Ack-Ack

[muckmaw]

Let's try this again....

Originally posted by muckmaw
I flew Air Warrior from the AOL days until about 2-3 years ago.

I don't think any one thing makes AH successful, but any one thing can be a game killer.

With that in mind, I doubt AH could have grown if field capture as well as the many other aspects of AH from graphics to customer support were not at least satisfactory.

It could also be that AH is the last stop for guys with low end machines. Who really knows. The point is, the game must be working at least well enough to attract and maintain new and old customers. This is something neither AW nor WBs could do.

Ack, does this clarify my position for you? Toad?

NO ONE THING MAKES A GAME SUCCESSFUL, but screw one thing up royally, and you're history.

The field capture system is AT THE VERY LEAST, ACCEPTABLE AS IT IS NOW.

Can it be better? Sure. Go back and read my post and many others with good suggestions.

Could it be worse? Hell yes. Flopping a Jabo onto the runway of a porked field and calling it a capture is beyond gamey, imho.

If AW, and WBs were so great....why did they lose so many customers?

[lazs2]

well..... WB got away from quick action and went to the silly axis vs allied "realism"... they figured out a way to make sure that one side allways had the advantage and made it so that hiding from each other or steamrollering was the only way to play.

gamey field captures?   who cares?  only the insects care about field capture anyway... the strat is just something to get the fight going..  The fite is the thing.   The strat is so simplistic in AH that only an insect would find it stimulating for more than the first dozen times or so.

And that is exactly what is happening... the guys who like to pretend they are officers in WWII are finally reaching the end of even their allmost unlimited threshold for boredom and are now demanding even more strat to bore people to death with.

I think that AH2 "missun arena" will solve some problems..  strat insects will happily buzz around the tower for 20 minutes waiting to form up in escort or attack squadrons and maybe the MA can  get back to basics...  Kill the red guy.

lazs
Publid Relations Officer for the BK's

[muckmaw]

Better, Lazs.

I give that one a 7 for the repeated "insect" label, the generalization of people you don't know, and the elitist, "my way of flying" attitude. I'll give you a bonus .5 for the "Only insects care about field capture" contradtiction. If only insects care about field capture...why are you replying to a thread about....well, field capture?

Total score...7.5

[SLO]

what i was tryin to say laz is it doesn't matter if its harder or easier to capture.....

some just don't give a ****......there attitude is  'as long as i got a base too take off from'

the other....the one that plays for capture....he really doesn't give a **** either...harder or easier.....he gonna capture that base anyways....5 or 10 guys...whats the f****** diff......none

[Sable]

This seems like a really interesting idea to me.  If we chose late 42 as our perk cutoff (to promote midwar) the top fighters would be the following (the Typhoon and F4U-1 would probably be perked, much like the Spit XIV and Tempest are in our current setup):

US: P-40E (or if we could get a P-38F that might work)
RAF: Spit Mk. IX  
LW: Bf109G2, FW190A5
Reggia Aer. : C205 (I know, it's a later plane but it matches the others well)
IJAAF: Ki-61 (same deal as the C205)
VVS: Yak-9T (same as above)

I think that would make for a pretty interesting mix of fighters which are pretty well balanced in terms of speed and fighting ability, and most of the bombers would be pretty useful.

Originally posted by Kweassa
 ..

 So, the point here, is removing the power from the dweeb's hands.

* Place light perks on late war planes with heavy bomb loads and lightning speeds - suiciding in those planes will cost you.

* Promote the usage of mid-war planes with the "real average" ordnance - most usually a single 500lbs bomb. It's free, but it's limited in power - it's gonna take six, seven consecutive suicides of more than four dweebs within a 15 minute period, to close down a small field. Besides, you don't get to spray two~three bombs and four~ten rockets. You've only got one 500lbs bomb. You want to help your team? Then learn how to bomb right.

* Promote the usage of dedicated jabo planes - specialized roles of attack planes to add variety in field attacks. These planes are very much more vulnerable than those late-war fighter-bombers. They, can be stopped and intercepted.


 Basically, we have to neuter the individual dweeb by making it costly to kamikaze something, or at least greatly reduce the effectiveness of kamikaze by decreasing average payload a fighter carries.

 The key is to make field captures hard for the people who aren't doing it right.. a certain area with lot of bozos, will almost never see any fluctuation in the front line. Their incompetency will deny them the opportunity of field porkage, or capture. It's not about making it hard for everyone.


ps) Oh, the radar range needs to be widened, too. By the time you see a group of dots, its already too late to stop them.

[AcId]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
No, the extra 10 miles would take exactly two minutes at 300mph.  However, you fail to account for a number of things.  For instance:

(1)  The Spit V cruises at around 280mph.  That's typically after diving to get up to speed.  It takes substantially longer to accelerate to that speed in a straight line.  This means that 10 miles require about 2.14 minutes to travel.  Other planes cruise even more slowly, especially early warbirds.

(2)  The Spit V autoclimbs 3.5k/minute @ 160mph at sea level.  If one autoclimbs into the fight, it takes 3.75 minutes to travel the extra 10 miles.

Figure therefore at least some variation of between 2.14 and 3.75 minutes to go the extra 10 miles for a Spit V.  The former takes less time but puts one at exactly the altitude disadvantage you mentioned appearing on maps with closer bases.  The latter takes quite a bit longer but compensates with higher altitude.

Now let's figure that the studious Spitfire pilot flies both to and from the enemy base, making the extra distance 20 miles (almost an entire sector) rather than 10 miles.  Now he faces trip times ranging from roughly 4.28 extra minutes to 7.5 extra minutes.  If, throughout the course of the evening, he flies ten sorties to and from this enemy base, you're looking at between 42.8 and 75 minutes of extra flight time because of those extra 10 miles.  That's empty time with nothing to do but climb or travel.  It's wasted time.  It breeds boredom.

That's why so many people hate it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

And these points IMHO help to bump the numbers you see of the fast AC a la LA-7

Honestly, ifn I gotta travel a fair distance to a fight I grab an LA-7 strictly cuz it gets me there fastest (perk free speed).

Sorry, no intention to hijack.

[Zippatuh]

It may be a result of making the fields harder to take has inspired suicide action.  I do believe though that if the fields were 4 or 5 times harder to take now that it might make a suicide mission useless and have no affect on the “strat” game.

So I’ll add to my list:

Increase the number of fuel blivets as well as increasing the hardness of the objects.

It seems to me that if the fields were easier to take you run the strong possibility of it being captured before you even get to the fight.  Now you’re in your early war bird and still have a long flight because each time you up to a target, it gets captured.

My only history is with FA so I have not experienced the other sims by which this has been compared to.  I’m not sure the comparisons are valid though.  The number of people online at the time would certainly have an impact on game play.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by AcId
Honestly, ifn I gotta travel a fair distance to a fight I grab an LA-7 strictly cuz it gets me there fastest (perk free speed).

That's a good point, AcId, and one I mentioned in another thread awhile back.  Lengthening field distances, besides increasing commute time to and from bases, also creates unforeseen side effects such as raising the altitude of most engagements and changing the sorts of planes one finds in those engagements.
It also tends to increase the effect of porking fuel, particularly for early war planes.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[lazs2]

acid is correct... the farther the distance between field the more people gravitate towards the faster and better climbing planes.

Come up with more anal insect like strat if you don't feel there are enough la7's, pee 51's or dee9/gee10's in the game.

muck... if field capture were easier with closer fields then the world would be a beautiful place...  
lazs

[muckmaw]

Closer fields, sure..why not.

But I just don't see how making capture easier will help your cause. Now why do i care? Well, about 50% of my AH time is spent looking for a decent furball.

Let me see if I can hash this out.

Easy capture:
Fields change hands quickly.
Suicide dweebs can still pork and 3 players can capture.
Resets happen faster.
Steamroller even more effective than it is now
Furballs not given time to form and grow

Harder capture:
More room for level bombing
More strategic planning needed for capture
Higher numbers needed to capture base
Steamroller will either accelerate, or method will be rendered less effective.
Suicide dweebs will either increase or decrease due to frustration.
Furballs will grow out of capture attempts and last longer due to increased difficulty.

I am honestly trying to see this from both sides. It just seems like a difficult capture will be better for everyone except the suicides, the low alt Buffs, and the 2-3 man capture attempts.

Please explain the benefits of making field capture easier.

[Toad]

Originally posted by muckmaw
Let's try this again....

Ack, does this clarify my position for you? Toad?

 

Allow me to clarify my position for you. I'm Toad, the one sitting in the lawnchair with a Boulevard Pale Ale, about 20 feet from the pile of rotting vegetables that Beet1e is sitting under.

RUDE, I believe, is the one you were having a discussion with. Hope this clears things up.  

**************


I note that while I was away, no one in the discussion addressed these questions.

Did the "dweeby low level buff tactics" (TM) start (become much more prevalent?) before or after the successful the hue & cry to make buffing "much more difficult"?

Did the "dweeby suicide jabo attacks" (TM) start (become much more prevalent?) before or after the successful hue & cry to make field capture "much more difficult"?

So the new solution to cut down on "dweebiness" (TM) is to make everything more difficult?



I surmise that the reason for this is obvious. Is it true that almost all of us realize that "making things more difficult" has lead to an overall increase in "dweeby gameplay"? Because that's what I'm thinking.



Please continue. I knew this thread would have legs!

[muckmaw]

Sorry 'bout that toad.

Let me take a crack at your questions..

Low-Alt buffs...were here before, but much more prevalent after change to bombing. (Add in dive bombing buffs, as well)

Frankly, I find this group laughable. They provide easy fodder and rarely if ever hit anything of value. 90% of the times I've seen these types come into a contested area, they don't make it to target, much less hit it. I believe this group is negligible.

Suicide jabos have become much more prevalent but they've been here so long, I can't recall when they really got out of hand.
I just can't see, though, how making the capture more difficult will increase suicide jabos. They will really be useless.

If you're serious about eliminating them, you need to impliment several ideas from this thread. (Don't worry, none of them were mine).

Add perks to mid and late war rides.
Add perks to Jabo bombs.
Add to size of town at field
Add mannable or AI ack
Increase fuel bunkers by 50%

I honestly cannot see how watering down the game will help those with little skill, or regard for survival will suddenly develop skill, or learn to move up to the next level. I can only think of ways to try and prevent these people from succeeding, and thereby frustrate them. I'm not very good at figuring out how to inspire these people to change their gameplay.