please refine gv damage model

[Citabria]

tanks shouldnt tip to one side when tracks hit and they certainly shouldnt bounce uncontrolably when both tracks are hit like the tiger does.

turret hits should kill the tank too

hits on the barrel should kill the guns

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Citabria
tanks shouldnt tip to one side when tracks hit and they certainly shouldnt bounce uncontrolably when both tracks are hit like the tiger does.

turret hits should kill the tank too

hits on the barrel should kill the guns

You don't like the Panzer Milkshake?

Yesterday in an M8 I wax'd an Osti's turret.  I thought "heh, he's a waste now."  but he attacked me with his hull gun so I shot back.  I hit the Osti 20+ times with 37mm HE--nothing.  I hit his hull gun (he parked dead in front to shoot it out with me) about 4x--nada.  I tried to take out his tracks and shoot up his gears--nada echilada.   I wasn't missing, he was ten feet away.  He destroyed my engine, my turret, my pintle gun, and killed me with his 7.9mm.  I shot him with my .50 before it died, nothing, could not hurt the thing.  If I had been a manned ack gun, ostensibly firing 37mm HEs?  I would have destroyed it in less than 20 rounds.  Way less--I know because I kill tigers and die in Tigers all the time from manned acks.  

The GV damage model is a joke.  I hit a guy in a panzer x7 yesterday.  Nada.  I mean nada.  No bounces, all sprites.  He killed me.  My connections, by the way, seem solid.  I hit a Tiger with a panzer gun to kill it 16 times.  16.  At like, 30 yards.  From the rear, sides, you name it.  16x.  Then, you up a Tiger and "Pow" guy kills you dead with one round from so far away you can barely make out the lump he makes on the horizon.  Yep.  Since AP rounds need velocity to kill, I would rethink the whole AP round damage model gig, seems that sometimes up close they are worthless.  This is especially true in Tanktown if you hit a guy in the bellybutton end, sometimes you simply cannot kill him with that shot.  You shoot him 6 times while he smokes, turns his gun and "pow" kills you with one shot in the frontal armor.  The GV play is a joke and people love it so it needs fixing.  

I also think there needs to be some model for HE rounds on tanks.  I have 88 and 75 HEs bounce off tanks.  May I say this is not entirely realistic.  APs, yes, HEs No (I reckon you could get some non detonating glancing shots with HE rounds, but not as many as I see)  and 88mm HEs might cause some damage to Panzers--just maybe, you know?  They do take out Osti turrets just fine and mess up M3s and M16s.

I alternately cannot die, die immediately in tanks.  There seems to be no consistency.

Also, landscapes have "holes" in them wherein a guy is virtually unhittable.  You find one of those and you can pound guys till yer ammos gone and they can't hit you at all.  The trees are a joke too.  Guys can see you, you can't see them or vice versace.  Also, people shooting through buildings to kill guys?  For some bldgs I can see it but not for all.  I can see tanks through buildings and shoot them that way in town all the time.  

The bouncing Tiger thing is the worst piece of crapola in the game but the 210 MPH downhill tank is not far behind.  You take a Tiger out and it's a waste of time most days.  I don't even bother to try for tehir armor, just hit the treads and let them rot there.  

GVs need a facelift.  So does Bob Dole.

Sakai

[eddiek]

Yesterday, in the CT, me and another guy roll Tigers into a base.
We lay waste to the field, kill all the acks, wait on a goon or M3 to either come capture, or resupply.
Estes resupplies us, then heads back with troops.
A guy spawns a PNZR, I kill him 2 or 3 times, then out of thin air I see a round coming at me.  THEN his tank appears.  He missed me, I hit him in the rear of his tank with an 88mm AP round.  No damage on him. I fire again, hit in the same spot.  No damage.
I am facing him, so my frontal armor should keep me safe if he wants to duke it out, right.
Wrong.
One hit, BOOM, I am back in the tower, "Sniper67 shot you down".
The other guy who was with me in another Tiger also bought it.
I've just about given up on the GV's in AH.  Too inconsistent.  Too many times of hitting an enemy vehicle repeatedly with no visible effect, only to catch the magic bullet from them one shot, one kill.
Heck, I hit an M16 at A63 the other day on the Baltic map, with an 88mm HE shell, and he drove right on, didn't even ruffle his hair.
Freakin Osty spawns and starts hammering away at me and sure enough, I get my turret taken out.
Is there no other way to model GV damage than the cumulative effect method?  I mean, should it not be "hit the critical area to inflict damage"?  
I've seen 1K eggs score a direct hit on Tigers and Panzers and not do a thing to them, and I've also seen my bombs fall short or long and knock them out.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by eddiek
A guy spawns a PNZR, I kill him 2 or 3 times, then out of thin air I see a round coming at me.  THEN his tank appears.  He missed me, I hit him in the rear of his tank with an 88mm AP round.  No damage on him. I fire again, hit in the same spot.  No damage.

Ah yes, the phantom tank phenomenom.  

This is way common.  Yesterday in Tanktown same same here:  guy was spawning right up against a bldg and the shells went through him.  happened to several of us.  Hit a guy at point blank, drove around him shooting him, nada.  Zip.  No Lo Tango. 4x rounds, pop he kills me with a single round.

It's just in places.  

But often, when guys are spawning, depending on connections, they can see you but you can't see them yet.  I spawn on camped places all the time knowing that sooner or later they won't see me till its too late.  Sometimes I get lucky and they miss, but sometimes it is obvious they are waiting to see a spawner and I kill them.  

Lately even the sure fire kill low in side armor shot at PB range is having zero--count it--zero effect at times.  I hit a guy there three times before he even smoked yesterday.  Hit another in turret and side at PB range--nothing, no smoke, nada. One shot, POW back to base for me.

Sakai

[Bullethead]

Sakai said:

Yesterday in an M8 I wax'd an Osti's turret.  I thought "heh, he's a waste now."  but he attacked me with his hull gun so I shot back.  I hit the Osti 20+ times with 37mm HE--nothing.  I hit his hull gun (he parked dead in front to shoot it out with me) about 4x--nada.  I tried to take out his tracks and shoot up his gears--nada echilada.   I wasn't missing, he was ten feet away.  He destroyed my engine, my turret, my pintle gun, and killed me with his 7.9mm.

There seems to be a bug in the Osti.  Once it takes 1 damaging hit, it's like it's invulnerable to tank fire from that point on.  It's WAY harder to kill and Osti than it is an Pz4, even though they have the exact same hull and the Pz4's got real armor on the turret.

For example, last night I was defending a field from several dweebs who kept coming in Pz4s and Ostis by the same route down a hill.  I quickly learned what the lead and range were on this route so had no trouble hitting them even when they were going full speed down the hill.  The range started at 12 on the AP sight at the top of the hill and fell to between the 4 and 6 marks at the bottom.  Lots of hits on the tops of the vehicles due to the hill slope.  I was using the Pz4 myself with the big AP loadout.

When a Pz4 appeared, I only needed 1-2 hits to kill it, even at the top of the hill.  In fact, because of this and me having the route boresighted, none ever got more than 1/3 of the way down the hill.

However, Ostis were a completely different story.  I'd quickly hit them once just like with the Pz4, and this hit would either take out their gun or their motor, usually the gun.  But then it required another 8-10 hits to finish them off.  I'm talking 7.5cm AP hits with the big flash, indicating a penetration.  And even after hitting them that many times, I'd usually end up with just an assist because in the meantime jabos would have been strafing and bombing them.

One time, I hit an Osti near the top of the hill and got his gun.  I could tell because he started smoking but kept moving.  I hit him 2-3 more times as he came down the rest of the way.  Then he charged straight at me on the level ground, firing with his hull MG, and stopped about 50 feet away.  During this charge, I hit him in the hull 4 or 5 more times.  He was close enough that I could place my shots where I wanted, and I hit the driver slit and hull gun a couple times each, to no visible effect.  Finally, I think it was the 10th hit that got him, the hit being in the front center of the hull.  All these were AP hits.  Totally ridiculous.

This seems to be a fairly recent change.  I don't recall having such problems killing Ostis before.  Usually only 1 hit with 7.5cm AP was all it needed.  Jabo guys have also been complaining lately that Ostis are suddenly WAY tougher than before.  Strafing now has very little chance of even taking out their main gun, which has protection about like a halftrack.

Anyway, the Osti's pretty obviously porked at present.  Please look into it.

[Twist]

I ran over building debris yesterday in town defending it and lost my perk ride. A Tiger tank does NOT go 'poof' if you a hit a few pieces of brick and mortar with it. 47 points shot to hell, pissed away, flown right up a wild hogs as...errr...any way, I lost them.

I saw something odd while shooting a flak so I had someone help me check it out. We both grabbed flaks and moved a good distance apart. I fired constantly in the same spot like I had earlier and he watched the rounds land all over the place. He fired at me and the rounds landed in the same place every time. Both vehicles were engines off and parked. We fired up and moved and the results were the same. Is there some kind of randomizer affecting the trajectory?

I hope there will be a lot of changes in the new game, I really do. Games are supposed to be entertaining.

[Blue Mako]

Osti guns have dispersion built into them.  On your FE you will see your shots land in different spots randomly.  However, someone else shooting will not show the dispersion as the code simplifies what you see.  The other persons FE, however, will show the dispersion.

Sakai: just an FYI, the manned ack is HE and AP.  It is designed to be anti-armour and anti-aircraft so that bases can have dual defences.

[Sakai]

Originally posted by Blue Mako
Sakai: just an FYI, the manned ack is HE and AP.  It is designed to be anti-armour and anti-aircraft so that bases can have dual defences.

Ah!

That explains the difference.  I expect the Flak guns are fairly high velocity too so they likely make excellent anti-tank guns.

Thanks for that info, that makes a lot more snse.

Sakai

[john9001]

a small point, the osti is built on a Pnz4 hull , just the turret is different

[Sakai]

Originally posted by john9001
a small point, the osti is built on a Pnz4 hull , just the turret is different

Yes, but the hull gun certainly could not withstand 4 direct hits?  The treads 10?  I did not expect to shoot the 37 HE through the armor.  

Sakai

[AKWeav]

I don't operate the gv's for this very reason. Just to fricken randome. Attacking Tigers with bombs is the same. Unless you hit dead center on top of the turret with your bomb, nada. I would think that 2 1k bombs right beside a tiger would put it out of action at the very least. Damn things are near invunerable, unless of course I'm in one, and take one hit from a panzer.