Author Topic: Does fuel grade effect HP?  (Read 686 times)

Offline HoHun

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2003, 02:00:42 PM »
Hi F4UDOA,

>You are right that is the NAVAIR F4U-4 doc and the second one is from the flight manual. Point being they both have the same HP curve.

Note that the maximum power setting specified in the curve as well as on the manual page is "take-off/military" of about 2100 HP. The maximum power setting mentioned is "WEP" though, which obviously is going to be more than 2100 HP.

As you can calculate from the Standard Aircraft Characteristics data, the top performance graph (curve 1) was based on around 2600 HP. (At 2100 HP, climb rate would be about 3800 fpm.)

The 2600 HP figure would match the 2650 HP quoted in the XF4U-4 comparison report quite nicely (2650 HP @ 70" Hg at sea level).

The question of course is: How much power did the R-2800-18W produce in operational service? If water injection was functional, I'd bet it was more than the 2100 HP associated with the 3800 fpm climb rate figure.

With regard to the octane questions: Using Greg's formula, on 145 rated fuel the R-2800-18W might draw a maximum of 60" Hg. From a graphical estimate from the engine calibration chart, I'd say that equates to about 2400 HP at sea level and 2200 HP at 15000 ft.

However, that's still far short of the "curve 1" performance as the 2400 HP drop off with altitude immediately, while curve 1 drops off only at 11000 ft. By another graphical estimate, I'd say 70" Hg in low blower would just do the trick of giving curve-1 equivalent power.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline F4UDOA

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2003, 03:47:32 PM »
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Note that the maximum power setting specified in the curve as well as on the manual page is "take-off/military" of about 2100 HP. The maximum power setting mentioned is "WEP" though, which obviously is going to be more than 2100 HP.


I agree. I actually think the normal power setting is more interesting than the mil power setting because I don't have a speed or climb curve for mil power in the NAVAIR doc. But take a look at the normal power climb curve. 2900FPM at sea level and 7.5minutes to 20K. This power setting is the same with or without 115/145 fuel. Point being the climb rate is very high.

Quote
As you can calculate from the Standard Aircraft Characteristics data, the top performance graph (curve 1) was based on around 2600 HP. (At 2100 HP, climb rate would be about 3800 fpm.)
How would you calculate that?

Quote
The 2600 HP figure would match the 2650 HP quoted in the XF4U-4 comparison report quite nicely (2650 HP @ 70" Hg at sea level).
That is exactly what I thought except I can't figure out why the top speed is the same when you have such a huge increase(200HP) in available HP.

I have two other F4U charts showing climb at 60" MAP with climbs of 4,000FPM to 4,400FPM at sea level. But they all show the same top speed as the NAVAIR chart.

Offline GScholz

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2003, 03:53:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Bloody good idea!  Think I will get one myself!  Thanks, GS.


You're welcome :)

You need to do two things though. First make a piece of metal that you can put the cigarette out on and bolt it to the inside of the shellcasing. Secondly, make a lid for the whole thing to avoid the ash smell. Works great!
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline HoHun

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2003, 01:44:22 AM »
Hi F4UDOA,

>How would you calculate that?

If you've got performance curves for a given data point, you just have to assume a reasonable propeller efficiency and then can extrapolate the data for another point in the envelope.

>That is exactly what I thought except I can't figure out why the top speed is the same when you have such a huge increase(200HP) in available HP.

The two capped pylons seem to eat up 200 HP of shaft power at top speed. If the Aces High F4U-4 is faster at the same climb than the NAVAIR F4U-4, one might guess it doesn't have the pylons.

However, the inconsistency between Aces High and NAVAIR is bigger than that. The shape of the climb graph indeed looks more like 2400 HP graph, so the lower climb rate would suggest a heavier aircraft. With 2400 HP and no pylons, you'd get the same top speed as with 2600 HP and the pylons in place. Still, you'd need a 14000 lbs Corsair to get the climb rate at 2400 HP down to Aces High level is you're using the NAVAIR document as a basis, and this seems a bit much.

>I have two other F4U charts showing climb at 60" MAP with climbs of 4,000FPM to 4,400FPM at sea level. But they all show the same top speed as the NAVAIR chart.

60" Hg should be equivalent to the 2400 HP I mentioned, so these planes probably didn't have the pylons either.

Another consideration would be that the Aces High F4U-4 could have a different propeller than the NAVAIR F4U-4 that gives less climb power, but more top-speed power. (That would imply the Aces High F4U-4 has the pylons, too.) The difference might be a bit too large to explained this way, though.

The NAVAIR document gives the propeller as 6501A-0 - do you know of any other propeller types used with the F4U-4?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline DiabloTX

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2003, 05:59:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
You're welcome :)

You need to do two things though. First make a piece of metal that you can put the cigarette out on and bolt it to the inside of the shellcasing. Secondly, make a lid for the whole thing to avoid the ash smell. Works great!


Hey, you know what?  This could be a great money maker.  I am sure we could get some empty shells cheap, have them modified for tobacco usage, advertise them in Soldier of Fortune and Guns and Ammo magazine and make a fortune!  I'm in.  :p
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline GScholz

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2003, 11:30:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by DiabloTX
Hey, you know what?  This could be a great money maker.  I am sure we could get some empty shells cheap, have them modified for tobacco usage, advertise them in Soldier of Fortune and Guns and Ammo magazine and make a fortune!  I'm in.  :p


LOL! I'll take 10% royalty thank you. ;)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline DiabloTX

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2003, 01:46:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
LOL! I'll take 10% royalty thank you. ;)


Ummmm...10%???  DEAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline GScholz

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2003, 01:51:48 PM »
Deal!

Royalty means I get 10% of what you make. You do all the work, risktaking etc. ;)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline DiabloTX

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2003, 02:29:07 PM »
I have no problem with that, its just that it was YOUR idea!  My father in law is a superb welder and my oldest brother just retired from the Army.  20 years+ at Ft. Bragg.  Sure there are plenty of empty artillery shells laying arond there!! LOL!
"There ain't no revolution, only evolution, but every time I'm in Denmark I eat a danish for peace." - Diablo

Offline GScholz

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Does fuel grade effect HP?
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2003, 02:36:01 PM »
Hey, maby it's worth looking into. Let me know how it turns out. :)
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."