Author Topic: The Void between Machine guns and cannons.  (Read 9085 times)

Offline F4UDOA

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2003, 03:58:04 PM »
HT,

I don't think or know weather the ballistics model has anything to do with the dramatic differance between MG and cannon hits.

The area where I go off the tracks is what happens when that shell hits.

For instance I know when you shoot at a building with Panzer fire it takes XX amount of hits to destroy it. My question or statement would be that it takes far few to many hits to destroy an Aircraft with a cannon in AH than I believe it would in real life.

I know you have mentioned the damage model will change graphically but will it change in damage effects from impact as well?

Offline 4510

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2003, 04:32:25 PM »
Again, I'm not sure we can broad brush say that the cannons are too powerful, probably anymore than we can say they aren't.  We can probably draw some conclusions based on comparison to the MGs.  

How much it takes to down a given airplane has an awful lot to do with what is hit.. and speaks as much to the damage model as it does the gun.

As for rounds to down a fighter....  an excerpt from this web site...

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/hanstate.html

Facts are that Marseille is still acknowledged as among the best marksmen in the Luftwaffe. The Germans were very meticulous in filing combat reports with all relevant data to include time of battle, area of operation, opposition encountered, as well as an in-depth armorers report. At the end of a mission, the armorers would count the number of bullets and cannon shells expended during the fight. Marseille would often average an astonishing 15 bullets required per victory, and this with a combat resulting in his downing of several allied aircraft. No other German pilot was close to Marseille in this area.

Given that Marseille flew the Fredreich and Gustav model 109s, the best he had going for him was 1 x 20mm Cannon and 2 x 7.92mm MGs...
I guess we could go farther and determine rate of fire of the cannon vs the mgs and try and come up with average cannon rounds and 7.92 mm rounds for each plane.  (I assume the 15 rounds includes both)  It obviously didn't take very many cannon rounds (when they hit) to down a fighter.

Offline HoHun

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Re: The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2003, 04:36:21 PM »
Hi F4UDOA,


>So what gives? Were cannon armed fighters really that much more dominate in WW2 than MG armed ones? No, so why are two A/C with such similar attributes so different in the MA?

I'm afraid you can't really make reliable conclusions from the arena results of an inhomogenous group of pilots.

However, I'm confident you could make fairly reliable conclusions from flying both types yourself.

Adopt a consistent style, fly for survival, and then look at your kill ratios. Additionally, note down type and aircraft you shoot at, whether you hit, and whether you destroy it with your burst. That will help you to separate the guns from the flying.

This procedure will eliminate a lot of the unknown parameters of general arena flying and give you a pretty good idea of what cannon are really worth.

Well, at least what they're really worth in the arena :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Batz

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #18 on: August 01, 2003, 06:23:27 PM »
Brady isnt saying that 50s are "favored". He is saying the samething that every one says. 50 cals and Hissos are both killers at range and against gvs. The hisso in AH is both the best gun for a2a as well as air 2 ground, particularly with gv busting. This is "remarkable" in that from what I read the Brits didnt load ap ammo. Nest would be 50 cals.

The mgff and type99 mk1 (109e, 110c, a6m2) require a significant amout of ammo to bring down a fighter. As Brady mentions it would appear the ah dam model relies more on velocity then chemical. Theres a huge difference in say flying an a6m5 with type 99 mk2s and the a6m2 with mk1s. As Tony mentions in that thread Brady quotes

Quote
I agree with you that there should not be a huge difference in destructive effect between the two. Probably the major advantage of the higher velocity of the 99-2 was that it improved the hit probability.


Even in close (200yrd) the mk2 are by far more destructive.

Range wasnt factor in choosing gun load outs in ww2 but it certainly is in ah. From what I have read 50 cals were "chosen" based on hit probrability at range. As was the 303s. The brits actually evailed 50s and kept the 303s. They had a flat trajectory and you could get more rounds on target at convergence. I have not seen anything out side some anecdotal accounts that "range" (600-800 yrds) was a factor. There are 3 camps in ah with different views on this.

1. Says long range shots never happen its just "lag".
2. Some say with the amount of rounds the average ah players has fired gives him more "experience" then the average ww2 piot.
3. That they are just rare occurances.

I have seen films of long range shots. I have gotten kills at range and have been killed. So saying its rare or never happens is mostly bs.

The reason the chog with 4 hissos does much better the say the 50cal armed f4u-1 is because the chog can hit at the same range as the 50 but it takes farless ammo to break something or get the kill. Against hard turning aircraft where "snapshots" are the only way to get kills the 4 x hizookas will get the kill where a short burst of 50s wont.

The chog got 20% of the kills in ah not because of pilot skills but because of its guns. It was perked not because of "performance" but its effect on the arena. I was never in the "perk the chog" camp but I think it was a good descision in that it helped gameplay. Theres nothing special in the way the chog performs. It all comes down to those 4 hizookas.

Offline Urchin

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #19 on: August 01, 2003, 07:11:21 PM »
F4UDOA, the C-Hog isn't really a good example to use for a typical "cannon" plane.  The Hispano can and will kill a plane with 1 hit on a regular basis.  One hit to the tail will result in the plane losing either both horizontal stabs (about 50% of the time I'd say), or the vertical stab (about 25%) of the time.  About 25% of the time it doesn't kill them.  This is just from personal experience, mind you.  A lot of the folks that fly Hispano-armed planes say they've never killed someone with one hit, I find that incredibly hard to believe.  I usually get about 1 kill a sortie with 1 hit, and it is almost always to the tail.  Occasionally you can take a wingtip off with one hit, that will kill maybe half the folks it happens to.

The other 20mm cannons in the game are nowhere even close to the Hispano as far as destructive power goes.  If I were to use the .50 as a yardstick, I'd rate the Hispano at about 4 .50s, the La-7 cannons at about 2 .50s (apiece), the Mg151 and the Japanese cannons (N1K, A6M5, Ki-61) at about 1.75 or so, and the MG-FF and A6M2 cannons at about 1.2.  The 30mm Mk-108, the 37mm on the Yak, the 40mm on the Hurri-2D, and the 23mm on the IL-2 are in the same "class" as the Hispano as far as destructive power.  Actually, the 23mm is pretty comparable to the Hispano, the rest of them hit harder on average but are harder to hit with.  

So if you want to nueter the cannon planes, try flying one without Hispanos.  You'll see the enormous difference in firepower between 4 Hispanos and say 4 Mg151s (of course, flying the 190A-8 is like torture, but it has fairly heavy firepower, for a non-Hispano plane).

Offline DiabloTX

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Re: The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #20 on: August 01, 2003, 07:25:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
You would think that aircraft was the penultimate fighting machine of the 20th century.


Are you saying it was the next to last fighter made in the 20th century?
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Offline Hades55

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #21 on: August 01, 2003, 11:04:15 PM »
This is the real thing.....
the more of these damages are 20mm,
and german.
Conclusions yours.....
http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm

Offline Tony Williams

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Hispanos
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2003, 12:05:13 AM »
For those of you who haven't yet seen it, a comparative analysis of the effectiveness of all WW2 aircraft guns, and of typical fighter armament fits, is here: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

And for reasons why the USAF/USN made very little use of the Hispano, see: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/US404.htm

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and Discussion forum

Offline GRUNHERZ

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2003, 12:23:55 AM »
The hispano is almost a high velocity 50 cal with a hit power of a 20mm cannon - it's not quite as powerful in hitting as the Russian 23mm and its much less powerful than the 30mm class weapons but probability of hitting and especially hitting at very high ranges and high range deflection shots is much much better.  

I think we all remember the discussion about AH long range gunnery and where everyone stands on that issue.

The hispanos in AH are simply that much better F4UDOA. :)

Offline GScholz

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2003, 12:25:44 AM »
Mr. Williams, are those the figures HTC uses?
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Offline Furball

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2003, 04:56:54 AM »
Quote
In 'Guns of the Royal Air Force 1939-1945' by G.F. Wallace - who was there - there is an account of British tests of the British and US Hispanos which took place early in 1942. The British were unhappy with initial supplies of the American-made guns: "there were frequent misfeeds and lightly struck cap stoppages, and the life of several small components was very short" so a comparative test between one British and three American guns was set up. The intention was to fire 5,000 rounds from each gun without replacing any components. "The British gun fired the full programme but the performance of the American guns was so bad that in each case the trial had to be abandoned before the 5,000 rounds had been fired." The British gun experienced 19 stoppages in firing 5,012 rounds. The American guns experienced 67 stoppages out of 4,092, 97 out of 3,705 and 94 out of 2,610 respectively. Incidentally, Wallace states that the US guns were "beautifully made and better finished than our own" and expressed surprise that although lightly struck caps were a major source of stoppages, even more frequent were mis-feeds.


thats an interesting read Tony Williams, thanks.
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Offline MANDOBLE

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2003, 04:57:24 AM »
Tony, our Type99/2 (N1K2) is far more powerful than Mg151/20 (opposite of what these tables say) and comparable in destructive power to hispano (1 ping = damage 90% of times).

Offline Batz

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2003, 05:04:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Mr. Williams, are those the figures HTC uses?


Hardly :p

Tony doesnt play AH.........

Offline GScholz

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2003, 05:16:32 AM »
I wish he did!
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Offline Kweassa

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The Void between Machine guns and cannons.
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2003, 06:03:18 AM »
Like some others have pointed out, it's the range factor that makes the real difference. As an example I often mention, FB offers a good standard for comparison - in typical 1941 or 1942 era multiplayer sessions, there are some planes with certain qualities that would probably match our 'Spit' and 'N1K2' in very simular manner - slow/average speed, but outstanding maneuverability and ease of control, easy aiming process, powerful guns - the general 'point and fire' characteristics which people usually complain about.

 For instance, FB also has the same Hurricane MkIIc with 4x Hispano MkII installed. Also, the Soviet I-16(Type.24) are armed with simply devastating machine guns(in current version of FB, the Soviet Universal Berezins are an absolute terror).

 And yet, there is absolutely no such thing as whining about these planes in the sense that people whine about N1K2s and Spit9s in AH. Sure, some people complain about the strange overheat/stall/climb characteristics of the Hurri2c, some whine about the 'titanium I-16'. I spend as much time in FB forums in AH, also spend any spare time outside of AH in FB - and yet, I have yet to see even a SINGLE instance of people whining about those planes in performance.

 Why? Why is that? In 1941~'42 servers, the performance margins between the Yak-1B, Bf109E-7, F-4, or the Fw190A-4 or etc contemporary planes, is not as great as the margin we see in AH - where in the MA, people flying planes that do 360~380mph on the deck still complain about Spits and N1K2s.

 ..

 I have given a lot of thought, and concluded  that it is because even the smaller margin in speed performance the I-16s and Hurri2Cs in FB have against their contemporaries, is usually not enough to overcome the usual conditions they fall under - in simple words, I-16s and Hurri2Cs just cannot shoot anything down with such consistency as seen in AH Spits or N1K2s. Why?

 Because they are slow. Unless with a huge alt advantage, most usually those planes are too slow to come within 300meters of their target. A clever evasive usually gains enough separation in most cases. That holds the same with AH - with sufficient alt advantage, Spits and N1K2s can catch up briefly with their targets.. but most usually, they never come within 300~400 yards. Almost never. I recall many engagements with the Spits and N1K2s and I can honestly say, I hardly remember any case in which those planes ever came within 300 yards of me(unless I was in a same, or slower plane).

 So what's the difference? In one sim, planes have a hard time hitting over 300 meters. The aspect has changed, and in FB, the hitting distances are a bit further than it was in IL-2. But compared to the other, where 400~500 yards are common, 600~700 yards frequent for the skilled, and 800~1000yards if lucky..... just buy enough time to get near 500 yards, and the enemy will be brought down. In a flaming snap of wings or tail section.

 ...

 I am almost certain, that once such difficulties in long range shooting is represented in AH, the whinings about guns, will dissipate in its totality. People complain about many things, modellings and etc, but discussion on the gunnery modelling or how some planes are totally dweeb planes, are not very common. I was actully pretty surprised to see a "n00b plane" thread in FB, for the first time in many months.

 We've discussed a lot of possible reasons as why the gunnery is so different from what history offered, but that's for another thread. As long as some guns hit out far and more straight, far enough that the differences in gun characteristics actually come in to play, the more powerful one will always be favored - a little spray with few lucky hits will bring your target down, whereas  longer, more precise tracking shots are required for the machine guns.