Author Topic: How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver  (Read 2964 times)

Offline Ack-Ack

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The Cloverleaf maneuver, done properly can give the P-38 the edge it needs to defeat superior turning planes like the Spitfire.  

Now as with any tactic or maneuver, it's not a 100% guaranteed to work but it might just give you that much needed edge if you're caught in a low speed situation.

Here's an example of the cloverleaf in action.  This is the brief story of the famous duel between Lowell in a P-38H vs. a Spitfire XV.

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During the late winter of 1944 ocurred the famous dual between a
Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG.  Col. Lowell few the P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass.  Lowell was able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the Spitfire pilot did.  Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver.  After 20 minutes of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree angle, not vertically down).  Lowell stayed with the Spit through the maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground.  After that the Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home.  This contest was witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.


Here's another example of the maneuver being used.
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It was not a common maneuver, but a sort of last ditch hole card.  Gerry Johnson, ops exec of the 49FG used it to break contact with a Ki-44 he was in a rough one-on-one with on a mission to the oil refineries of the DEI in the fall of 1944.  As he told it, he had fought the Tojo from 24,000 ft. down to the deck, where it had latched onto his tail.  He didn't dare straighten out and try to run, because it was too close.  He couldn't dive.  He was forced to try to out-turn it because he didn't have anything else to try.  He started clover-leafing and, to his great relief, the Tojo was unable to stay with him and broke off contact, whereupon Johnson, master fighter pilot that he was, turned the tables on the Tojo and shot him down.



Here's the description of the maneuver.

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The cloverleaf was a horizontal maneuver that took advantage of the P-38's exceptionally gentle stall characteristics.  It was a low-speed maneuver.  The pilot would tighten his turn until he actually stalled out, ease off and let the plane unstall itself, then tighten back up into a stall, ease up....

Viewed from above, the pattern the airplane flew through the air looked something like a cloverleaf, and this simile was used in teaching the maneuver.


You can also use High Yo-Yo's to do the maneuver instead of keeping it on the horizontal plane.





Next will be Part II - More P-38 vs. Spitfire Tactics.

Ack-Ack
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 03:41:41 AM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline bozon

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2003, 07:36:29 AM »
I don't get it.
what will stalling and recovering achive that riding the stall edge won't?

Bozon
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Offline Eagler

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2003, 08:50:26 AM »
films! films!
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Offline mia389

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2003, 10:36:13 AM »
Good read akak, I think I use this quite often in the P38 but Im not sure.

 FBsmokey

Offline SlapShot

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2003, 11:06:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
films! films!


Yes .. I agree ... do you have a film that shows this .. from that description, I am having a hard time visualizing it.
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Offline gofaster

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2003, 01:24:33 PM »
I learned to drain the left aux tank first before trying any low-speed stall maneuvers in the P-38.

Offline humble

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2003, 01:25:21 PM »
I kind of visualize it but I'm not certain...I had a couple great 1vs 1's with dr7 over weekend...he was in a spitIX and I was in an La-5. Fight was basically in the vertical with me taking fight up trying to roll over on him then avoiding his counter and shot and repeating....anyway it sounds like he was doing exactly what your describing but in a climbing spiral...he'd pull up hard to edge of stall...then fall off and then pull up. It seemed like he was able to gain significant ground on me with these "mini-zooms". At the time I assumed the spit had better climb/e retention than La-5 but I'm beginning to believe that "loading & unloading" somehow provides better E retention.

Would love film ack-ack

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Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2003, 01:56:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by gofaster
I learned to drain the left aux tank first before trying any low-speed stall maneuvers in the P-38.


It's been my experience it really doesn't matter which fuel tank you drain first in the P-38.  That's why I always leave the auto-fuel thing alone.


ack-ack
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Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2003, 01:58:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bozon
I don't get it.
what will stalling and recovering achive that riding the stall edge won't?

Bozon


Hope this answers your question.

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According to Lowell, it was simply a turn that ended up looking like a cloverleaf. You pulled as hard and tight as you could into your opponent, forcing him to do the same. You released pressure on the yoke when the P-38 mushed out of the turn approaching stall. When you gained speed again, you pulled again. You rode the edge until you broke your oppenent down to a stall and killed him, or forced him to bug out. It took advantage of the zero net torque of the P-38. One way your single engine opponent couldn't turn as tight, and the other way he was more likely to break down into a stall and spin out. You could add a vertical element to it, but it was not necessarily a vertical move.

Savage


So just riding the edge of the stall would still allow the Spitfire to stay inside your turns and eventually shoot you down.  The object of the maneuver is to try to get the Spitfire to stall out.  Remember that in a stall fighting situation, the edge goes to the P-38 because of it's gentle stall characteristics.


Ack-Ack
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 02:59:03 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline SlapShot

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2003, 03:02:48 PM »
I think I got it .. its like 2 horizontal figure 8s alternating between the two patterns.

Excuse my artistic abilities using my trackpoint mouse ...

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Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2003, 03:12:51 PM »
That's pretty much what it should look like if you're viewing it from above.

I do have at least 5 or 6 films where I use that maneuver but unfortunately I never renamed them and no longer remember which file number they are.  And with over 800 films I've made, it's going to be kind of hard to go through them all to find those films.  I guess I'm going to have to drag one of my squadmates to the TA so we can film it again.

Anyway, thanks for making that


Ack-Ack
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Offline Eagler

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hmmm
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2003, 03:19:15 PM »
4 leaf clover eh? :)

think if it ain't an ack-ack or a hand full of other lightning pilots - the spit wins
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Offline mia389

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2003, 07:04:03 PM »
ah my bad havnt done that one, done more of a vertical half clover leaf lol.   I dont understand how that would work though, ya think the spit would get the shot when you went strait for then next turn. maybe not in RL but with AH gunnery you would die

Offline Ack-Ack

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2003, 09:23:50 PM »
You're not leveling out in the turns, you're easing up on the stick to recover from the stall.  If the maneuver is done correctly, at the time you're easing up on the turn to recover, the Spitfire himself is either in a stall or near the stall that he can't get a shot.  The objective is to force him into a stall and spin out or make him bug out and surrender the advantage.  This maneuver takes advantage of the having no torque in the P-38 and using the torque against the Spitfire.  The Spitfire also runs the risk of its turns widening because of its ability to gain E quickly.  The Spitfire pilot really has to excercise throttle control to keep it from happening.  Which is just one more thing a P-38 pilot can take advantage of in a stall fight.

You can use the maneuver both vertically or horizontal.  When doing in the vertical, your turns become High Yo Yos and you stall out as you come over the top and gain speed coming down to go back and do another High Yo Yo.  This also takes advantage of the P-38s excellent nose down turning ability.  I myself try to do it this way.

Remember that these aren't sure fire tactics, it's a last ditch effort if you unavoidably find yourself in a turn fight situation against a Spitfire.

Ack-Ack
« Last Edit: August 04, 2003, 11:51:50 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline humble

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How to kill a Spitfire in the P-38 Part I - The Cloverleaf maneuver
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2003, 11:56:24 AM »
Flaps???

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