Author Topic: Bf110 Designations and Stuff  (Read 372 times)

Offline Bullethead

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Bf110 Designations and Stuff
« on: August 09, 2003, 03:09:07 PM »
I recently purchased this book:

Messerschmitt Bf 110 / Me 210 / Me 410, by Heinz Mankau and Peter Petrick, translated from the German by Don Johnston, Schiffer Military Publishing, Atglen PA, 2003, ISBN 0-7643-1784-9.

This book traces the history of the planes in its title, plus a few of their competitors such as the Ar 240 to show the context.  All information is pulled from official German documents, such as RLM staff meeting minutes, correspondence between the principal players, manuals, acceptance and loss reports, logbooks, etc.  It then describes all versions of each plane.

All in all, it seems pretty authoritative on the designations of the various models.  The authors compare their research results to what's already been published by folks like Herrmann and Nowarra, and where there is conflict they cite their evidence in detail to show why they think they're right.  Not having seen the source documents myself (which are listed in the extensive bibliography), I'm not in a position to say for sure whether Petrick and Mankau are correct.  However, they do present a strong case :).  It's as good as any lawyers could present a technical subject to a jury of laymen, let's say.

Anyway, for the rest of this post, I'm going to assume that Mankau and Petrick are correct.  So let's examine the 110s we have in AH to see what changes, if any, should be made to them in light of this new book.

AH's Bf-110C-4b
Proposed changes:
  • Designation:  Bf-110C-7
  • Guns:  2xMG FF M, otherwise the same
  • Ord:  choice of 1x1000kg or 2x250kg


Evidence for Proposed Changes:
According to Mankau and Petrick, there was no such thing as a "C-4b", but there was a "C-4/B".  Only 4 of these were ever built, however (by Gotha in July 1940), and they were redesignated as "C-7" towards the end of 1940.

Originally, when the LW wanted to put bombs on 110s, they figured they could just have field units attach bomb racks to existing planes.  This resulted in the C-1/B and the C-2/B.  However, it was soon discovered that the original landing gear was too weak for the extra load so this project terminated quickly.  Thereafter, bomb rack installation was done at repair depots because it included new legs as well, and a few new planes were built by the factories with these features as original equipment.  The new planes up to July 1940 included a single C-2/B and the four C-4/Bs noted above.

Then in Aug-Sep 1940, Miag built 35 new planes called "C-7".  These were identical to the C-4/B, apparently.  Thus, in late-1940, the LW paperwork had C-1/B, C-2/B, C-4/B, and C-7.  Towards the end of the year, they lumped all bomb-carrying 110Cs into the "C-7" designation and did away with all the "/B" names.  Thus, "C-7" came to mean any 110C capable of carrying bombs, regardless as to what subtype it started as.  Mankau and Petrick don't give a total for the C-7 beyond the 39 built new (35 built as such and 4 renamed), but there were apparently quite a few "C-7s" created at repair depots.  In any case, there were way more "C-7s", than there were "C-4/Bs", so IMHO (assuming all the above is true), "C-7" would be a better name for our AH plane and "C-4b".

But some "C-7s" started out as "C-1s" and "C-2s", perhaps even "C-3s".  The only difference between the -1 and -2 was the radio, so that has no game effect.  The C-4 and later types had a different type of tailgun mount than earlier versions.  Mankau and Petrick say the new tailgun mount was retrofitted to earlier types, and the AH version as the new design, so no problem there, either.  However, both the -1 and -2 had the original MG FF 20mm, whereas the C-3 and later types had the MG FF M, which was better in some unspecified way.  That might make a difference in the game.  OTOH, it's probably safe to assume that the "C-7s" created at the repair depots got retrofitted with the new 20mm as well, because the old type required a bulge on the lower fuselage that would have interfered with the bomb racks.  Anyway, I wonder whether what the game shows as "MG FF" is the MG FF M or the original version?  NOTE:  the 3D model in the game doesn't have the original MG FF bulge.

Finally, there's the subject of ordnance.  The bomb-carrying 110Cs got the ETC 500/IX bomb rack, which was capable of mounting the following bombs:
  • 1x SC 1000, or;
  • 1x SD 1000, or;
  • 2x SD 500, or;
  • 2x SC 250.
  • no mention made of SC 500s


The SD bombs were low-capacity AP bombs of slim profile, whereas the SC bombs were HE.  Apparently the SC 500s were too fat to put 2 of them side-by-side on the rack, but you'd think they'd have been able to carry 1 of them, like they did with the SC 1000.  Anyway, we apparently only have HE bombs in AH, so I propose adding an SC 1000 bomb to the 110C's ord list.

AH's Bf-110G-2
Proposed change:
  • Designation: Bf-110G-2/R3
  • Ord:  add 1x1000kg bomb as above


Evidence for Changes:
According to Mankau and Petrick, the standard armament for the G-2 was 2xMG 151/20 and 4x MG 17.  This was deemed insufficient for dealing with heavy bombers, so field units often replaced the 4xMG 17s with 2x MG 151/20s.  The RLM agreed but also noted that 4x20mm wasn't enough, either, based on experience with the standard 2x20mm belly pod.  So instead of adopting the 20mm nose field mod, they went for 2xMK 108s.  

The 30mm installation was tested on the five 110G-4/U9 testbeds during 1943.  It was then approved for production for both the G-2 dayfighter and the G-4 nightfighter, in both cases resulting in the /R3 suffix.  These planes were not modified in the field, but were built new with the 2x30mm at the factory.  That seems to have been the case with most of the /R types--the work was too extensive to be done in the field, either to install or remove.

In terms of ord, the G-2 had the some bomb rack as the C-7, so could also carry the 1000kg bomb.  

As an aside. the 3D model in AH has the large rudders (compare to the 110C model).  According to Mankau and Petrick, the large rudders were only fitted to 110s that needed them to overcome stability problems caused by external equipment.  As a result, they were almost exclusively seen on G-4 nightfighters, due to the problems with the antennae.  However, the G-2/R1, with the 37mm gunpod, was found to need them as well.

Offline frank3

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Bf110 Designations and Stuff
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2003, 03:28:08 PM »
AaArGh!!! to much text!!! :eek:

Offline HoHun

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Re: Bf110 Designations and Stuff
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2003, 06:14:01 PM »
Hi Bullethead,

>However, both the -1 and -2 had the original MG FF 20mm, whereas the C-3 and later types had the MG FF M, which was better in some unspecified way.  That might make a difference in the game.  OTOH, it's probably safe to assume that the "C-7s" created at the repair depots got retrofitted with the new 20mm as well, because the old type required a bulge on the lower fuselage that would have interfered with the bomb racks.  

The MG FF and the MG FF/M were externally identical. The MG FF/M was capable of firing the new lowered-recoil ammunition introduced along with the mine shells, and the old MG FF could be (and was) converted to MG FF/M standard beginning just before the Battle of Britain. (I'm relying on Tony Williams' "Rapid Fire" here.)

With regard to the bulge, I'm pretty sure it can't be connected with the MG FF/M issue.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Bullethead

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Re: Re: Bf110 Designations and Stuff
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2003, 09:38:13 PM »
HoHun said:
Quote
With regard to the bulge, I'm pretty sure it can't be connected with the MG FF/M issue.


Well, all I can say is what I read in that book.  They have some pics of what they claim are C-1s and C-2s and make a special point of drawing your attention to the bulge on the belly for the original MG FFs, and then show you the bellies of what they say are C-3s and C-4s and there's no bulge.

But regardless, from what you're saying it doesn't matter.  Either the old guns could be replaced or modified into the new model.  So the "C-7s" would have the /M gun and there'd be no game effect if AH currently models the /M but just says MG FF on the hangar screen.

Offline hazed-

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Bf110 Designations and Stuff
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2003, 10:55:17 PM »
thnx bullethead, interesting I may go buy the book if its pretty technical.

Just fyi the R or Rustsatze(field conversion) suffix was used on pretty much all LW planes, at least any which had various loadouts, for instance our 190a5 had R1 (FuG 16ZE radio) and R6 (installation of one Wr21 rocket beneath each wing.
it also had 17, yes 17 Umrust-Bausatzen(factory conversion) suffix's and each stood for a different layout. e.g. Fw190A-5/U3 the ground attack variation eliminating the outboard wing cannons and providing a fuselage ETC 501 centre-line rack for bombs.

so as you can see our AH 190 could be a fw180A-5/R1 and a Fw190A-5/U3 so i guess HTC decided to leave it as just 190A-5 to save us the confusion :) the same applies for the 110G-2. We have the option to fly the 110 in several variations so Im assuming thas why HTC didnt give us the R or U designations.

If you have any other books you consider good to buy , especially if they are very relevant to AH then please give us their names too, we are always looking for good reads :) .If you would like a good book on 190s then id recommend both these: 'combat legend focke-wulf Fw190' by peter caygill isbn 1-84037-366-0 and Focke-Wulf fw190 in combat' by alfred price isbn 0-7509-2548-5.

thnx again and im sure HTC will consider the change of suffix from C4b to C-7 if they agree with those authors. especially if they show documentation to back it up. Not a pressing problem but one worth changing purely for accuracy.

Ive noticed before the reference to 1000kg bombs being used on several aircraft we already have, and there are several threads asking for them but i can only assume that HTC decided maybe that the 1000kg loadout was not used in operations often enough to warrent its inclusion.I would dearly love to see it added though. 110's would be much better with a greater loadout weight.
One thing i did notice is you said 2 500kgs couldnt be fitted together on the racks unless they were the SD type. This means our AH 110G2 has 2xHE 500kg bombs in an impossible loadout. Maybe HTC will change it to 2x500SD or a single 1000kg for accuracy also?

Offline Bullethead

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Bf110 Designations and Stuff
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2003, 12:04:52 AM »
hazed- said:
Quote
thnx bullethead, interesting I may go buy the book if its pretty technical.


If you can read German, I recommend getting the untranslated version.  While the English is very good in the text, a lot of pics from manuals and such are in German still, and the translator missed a few photo captions.

Quote
Just fyi the R or Rustsatze(field conversion) suffix was used on pretty much all LW planes...  so as you can see our AH 190 could be a fw180A-5/R1 and a Fw190A-5/U3 so i guess HTC decided to leave it as just 190A-5 to save us the confusion :)


I used to think the same thing, but after reading this book, I think otherwise now.  The Germans don't seem to have used the /R and /U suffixes every time they hung something different under the wing.  I mean, look at the Jug.  We didn't give it a different designation each time we swapped wing tanks for rockets, etc.  In the actual designation of the planes in German documents, these suffixes were only used to denote factory-built units that had significant internal differences from the baseline version.

In addition, there's long been a misunderstanding about the "R-pack" things (the book's not handy and I can't remember the full German spelling of the R word).  For instance, on the 110, the R-packs themselves had designations like M1-M5 and B1-B2.  IOW, there was "R-pack" M2, which was the ETC 500 IX bomb racks under the fuselage and "R-pack" B2, which was 2x300-liter DTs.  

So which of the above was the 110G-2/R2?  The answer is, neither.  The 110G-2/R2 was (IIRC) a plane armed with 4xMG 17s and 1x3.7cm Flak 18, along with a GM1 tank in the rear cockpit.  This had nothing to do with bomb racks (which couldn't be fitted due to the 3.7cm gunpod) or DTs (which could be fitted to all G models).

Thus, the 110G-2/R3 referred to a specific thing from the factory.  Namely, a 110G-2 that had its 4xMG 17s replaced by 2xMK 108s.  The "R-pack" M3, which is the only R-pack I know for the 110 that had a 3 in its name, was the racks for 4x50kg bombs under the outer wings.  Pretty much all G-2s had that, but only the ones with the MK 108s were /R3s.

As for the /U suffixes, those seem to have been mostly used as testbeds.  Like for the /R3.  The armament was tested on the G-4/U9s, and when they got the bugs worked out, this configuration was standardized as the G-2/R3 and G-4/R3.  Only five G-4/U9s were built, but there were scads of G-2/R3s and G-4/R3s.

This interpretation makes a lot of sense.  Ocham's Razor and all that, plus the Germans were pretty logical people.  However, the Germans don't seem to have been consistent across the board in their designations, so what's true for some planes might not be true for others.  In that, they're no different from the US.  Again, look at the Jug.  The change from razorback to bubble canopy, entailing the complete redesign of and retooling for the rear fuselage, didn't get a new letter suffix.  All those Jugs were D-models.  That's way different from normal US practice--such a major structural change warranted a new suffix letter, as is shown by other planes.

Quote
thnx again and im sure HTC will consider the change of suffix from C4b to C-7 if they agree with those authors. especially if they show documentation to back it up. Not a pressing problem but one worth changing purely for accuracy.


I only brought this up having seen the great "rename the Ki-61" debate :).

Quote
Ive noticed before the reference to 1000kg bombs being used on several aircraft we already have, and there are several threads asking for them but i can only assume that HTC decided maybe that the 1000kg loadout was not used in operations often enough to warrent its inclusion.I would dearly love to see it added though. 110's would be much better with a greater loadout weight.


I imagine they flew like pigs, though.  Supposedly, they could carry a 250kg bomb along with the 1000kg, but only 1 pilot had the balls to actually do it.

What I'd like to see instead is the G-2/R1, which had the 3.7cm Flak 18 gunpod without the GM1 tank :cool:  The book says this version also flew like crap, requiring the larger rudders to compensate (somewhat).  The 3D model has the large rudders, so we'd be in business ;).

Quote
One thing i did notice is you said 2 500kgs couldnt be fitted together on the racks unless they were the SD type. This means our AH 110G2 has 2xHE 500kg bombs in an impossible loadout. Maybe HTC will change it to 2x500SD or a single 1000kg for accuracy also?


Damn, good eyes.  I missed that myself when I wrote this up ;).

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Re: Bf110 Designations and Stuff
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2003, 12:29:17 AM »
Hi Bullethead,

>But regardless, from what you're saying it doesn't matter.

Yes, that's exactly what I meant :-)

>They have some pics of what they claim are C-1s and C-2s and make a special point of drawing your attention to the bulge on the belly for the original MG FFs, and then show you the bellies of what they say are C-3s and C-4s and there's no bulge.

The bulge may have coinceded with the MG FF respectively MG FF/M installation, but as the dimensions of the guns were identical, you could have have had the MG FF/M retrofitted to the aircraft with the bulge, or MG FF installed in the bulge-less planes initially.

(The difference between the MG FF and the MG FF/M was just that the recoil mechanism of te MG FF/M was modified to work with the lighter mine shells.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)