Author Topic: Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!  (Read 840 times)

Offline udet

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2242
      • http://www.angelfire.com/nd/mihaipruna/dogfight.html
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« on: August 06, 2003, 04:03:17 PM »
the elliptical wing was pioneered by a small firm in germany building light planes that exhibited awesome performance. Then Heinkel took the idea and built the He70, which was one of the fasters aircraft in the world when it appeared. One example went to Britain, to be tested with a British engine. The tests were witnessed by a memmber of the Supermarine design team and so the elliptical wing appeared on the Spit.

Offline ra

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3569
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2003, 04:38:04 PM »
The minor efficiency gain of the eliptical wing is overrated, that's why so few planes use it.

Offline john9001

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9453
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2003, 04:43:53 PM »
i heard the germans invented the P51, maybe thats why it was so inferior to the REAL german planes.

Offline MANDOBLE

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2003, 05:00:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
i heard the germans invented the P51


And that is true. Edgar Schmued (Ex-Messerschmitt designer) and Raymond Rice were the fathers of P51 at North American Aviation.

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6864
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2003, 05:38:51 PM »
Was the eliptical wing shape a fair trade for the H-P slats used on the 109?

Offline Urchin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5517
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2003, 11:53:28 PM »
That smued guy did some minor electrical work on the P-51.  Don't think that calling him a "father" of the P-51 is very accurate.

Offline TimRas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 560
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2003, 02:54:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
That smued guy did some minor electrical work on the P-51.  Don't think that calling him a "father" of the P-51 is very accurate.


I think it is. Schmued was  the Chief Designer of NAA and he was in charge of the design of the P-51. See:
Who Made the Mustang

Quote:
"But if the airplane was a team effort, its character was the work of a single man. No one disputes that that man was Edgar Schmued."

MANDOBLE:
Schmued never worked for Messerschmitt or for any other German aircraft company. (He eventually met Willy Messerschmitt when he visited Northrop in 1953).

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2003, 03:15:12 AM »
http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/cleaver32109.htm

As Edgar Schmued, designer of the P-51 and a product of the Messerschmitt company once told me, "After the 109E was put into production, it was clear to me that if one wished to participate in the development of a truly world-class aeroplane, one would have to do it elsewhere than at Messerschmitt."


http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/allies/us/cleaverp51.htm

in 1981, Edgar Schmued, designer of the Mustang, came out to Chino for a 40th Anniversary celebration of his most famous work at The Air Museum, "Planes of Fame." Mr. Schmued began his career at the Bayerische Flugzeug Werke in Munich in 1934, and left in late 1937 when certain political idiots started investigating aspects of his family history. (Thank God, if World War II had to be fought, we got to fight the morons of the Nazi Party.) As a young engineer, Schmued had been involved in most of the detail design work that went into the creation of the Bf-109. "I was working on a fighter design of my own all that time, refining it with new information, waiting for an opportunity," he said. "Yes, the Mustang was built in 120 days, but I had been designing it for five years."

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2003, 03:37:26 AM »
They were good at railway car design as well.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2003, 03:42:23 AM »
Been to India lately Dowding?

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2003, 04:05:09 AM »
The benefit of the elliptical wing is rated as 5-10% less induced drag compared to a tapered/square wing. That is quite a bit, but is reduced by the somewhat less favourable aspect ratio. However, another plus is the increase in wing area leading to a lower wing loading.
The truly elliptical wing will stall all the way through at once, however later than other wing designs.
The Spitfire wing was not absolutely elliptical, but very close to it.
While giving the aircraft some aerodynamical benefit, its main disadvantage was the manufacture part.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline davidpt40

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2003, 04:21:07 AM »
Who designed the P51s wing?  The wing is what makes the plane.

Offline MANDOBLE

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2003, 06:58:14 AM »
TimRas, Schmued worked as main designer for Messerchmitt and Fokker before becoming chief designer for NAA and P51.

Offline VO101_Isegrim

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 577
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2003, 07:47:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai
Was the eliptical wing shape a fair trade for the H-P slats used on the 109?


It definietely didn`t worth it. Those large elliptical wings come with large drag during all flight conditions, and behave just as poor or worser during high angles of attack as other wings, as on the larger surface turbulance was more pronounced under G.

The automatic leading edge slats, first developed, patented by German pilot and engineer Gustav Lachmann in February 1918, whereas his compatriot Mader was experminting with trailing edge slats at Junkers, as did Handley-Page. After the war Lachmann joined the Handley-Page firm, bringing his patent.

Slats deploy only before the stall happens - , greatly increasing lift and control, and keep up the airflow which would be lost by that time to turbulance on "normal" wing designs. Under these conditions, they increase lift mightily, by 60% compared to normal wings close to stall.

On the top of that, there`s no wing area and associtated drag increase,  as the slats only deploy when they are needed. This way it was possible to build planes with with smaller wings and small drag, making the plane fast, yet still possess equal, and, under G, even better stall and handling characteristics than a plane simply designed with big wings and large drag. It proved tp be a major advancment in wing design, and was used by a number of advanced fighters during the war - by practically all Messerscmitts, ie. Bf 109, Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410, Me 262, and the LaGG-3, La-5 and La-7. Today a great number of modern fighters, like the F-14 Tomcat, continue to use this device.

Offline MANDOBLE

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1849
      • http://www.terra.es/personal2/matias.s
Germans invented the Spitfire too!!!
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2003, 08:26:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
It definietely didn`t worth it. Those large elliptical wings come with large drag during all flight conditions, and behave just as poor or worser during high angles of attack as other wings, as on the larger surface turbulance was more pronounced under G.


Are the spit wings then just an exception to that rule?