Author Topic: Friday's setup - France: 1944 (Read 1446 times)

Mister Fork · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2003, 12:51:08 AM »

- fixed the winds. Had rise on. Eep! There are now just annoying headwinds from the south with NO rise.

The P-38L and P-51D is perked because for the date, it's BRAND new. Not many were flying by then and I want to limit their use in the CT. Also correct on the fact that both are huge attack platforms.

Should be a balanced arena.

GScholz · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2003, 03:33:06 AM »

Good.

One thing though, why isn't the 110G2 available? It was produced up till the end of the war.

Squire · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2003, 04:17:28 AM »

Speaking of brand new...there are no Doras untill 9/44, and no 109G10s untill 10/44, hows that for brand new for an 8/44 setup?

As for the P-38L, this isnt the MA. Who cares if it has a good jabo ability? Nobody. I dont see the P-47D-25 or the A20G perked, or the 190F-8.

Mister Fork · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2003, 10:12:09 AM »

Actually, the Bf 109G-10 was in service by March. The Bf 110G-2 was only used in the Russian front and the Bf 110-H version delaged to night time roles over Europe for bomber intercept. The P-38L and the P-51D were JUST entering service.

Kurt Tank started production on the Dora D-9 in June and it went into service in August. (http://www.vectorsite.net/avfw190.html)

The setup is correct historically as we can ge it. The only A-historical element is the Spit IX - it was replaced by the XIV over the beginning in 1944. But considering how lethal the SpitXIV is at medium and high altitudes, it needed to be perked.

Service Dates:

S.Army:
A-20G ... 5-42
B-17G ... 6-43
B-26B ... 5-42
P-38L ... 7-44
P-47D-11 ... 1-44
P-47D-25 ... 4-44
P-51B ... 12-43
P51D ... 5-44

British:
Lancaster III ... 3-42
Mosquito Mk VI ... 7-43
Spitfire Mk XIV ... 1-44
Tempest V ... 5-44
Typhoon ... 6-42

German:
Bf 109F-4 ... 6-41
Bf 109G-2 ... 5-42
Bf 109G-6 ... 10-42
Bf 109G-10 ... 3-44
Fw 190A-5 ... 3-43
Fw 190A-8 ... 2-44
Fw 190D-9 ... 8-44
Ju 88A-4 ... 12-40
Me 262 ... 7-44

Widewing · « **Reply #19 on:** August 16, 2003, 12:16:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mister Fork
Actually, the Bf 109G-10 was in service by March. The Bf 110G-2 was only used in the Russian front and the Bf 110-H version delaged to night time roles over Europe for bomber intercept. The P-38L and the P-51D were JUST entering service.

Kurt Tank started production on the Dora D-9 in June and it went into service in August. (http://www.vectorsite.net/avfw190.html)

I suggest you double-check your service dates.

Deliveries of 190D-9s began in mid August of '44, but units were pulled from combat to re-equip with them. To my knowledge, no units flew Doras on combat sorties before October of '44, and they were still rare until December. JG26 didn't start receiving Doras until October and pulled individual Gruppes out of combat for the transition, which took several weeks.

P-51D deliveries began in January of '44, with the 8th AF getting their initial lots in February of '44. It was not an especially "new" aircraft by August of '44.

P-47D-11s arrived in the ETO in December of '43, even D-21s were common by early May of '44.

Don't confuse delivery dates with operational dates. These can be separated by several months, at the least. It takes time to train pilots in operation of new aircraft and it takes time to get the logistical base in place. In August of '44, Bf 109G-10s were as rare as chicken teeth with frontline units.

Both should be perked to reflect availability.

My regards,

Widewing

Squire · « **Reply #20 on:** August 16, 2003, 12:50:56 PM »

Im bringing this up to defend my objection to the perking of the P-38L, so:

I have seen the cut and pasted "CMs" list above there, its flawed and contains several errors.

The Bf 109G-10 entered service in October 1944, same time as the 109K-4 did.

Its entry date is either listed as "Fall 1944" or "October 1944" in sources.

Source (one of them): "Bf 109 in Action Part 2", squadron/signal publication (a respected source); page 44 "The G-10 was issued to units in the early Fall, 1944". That aint March.

Go ahead and look it up yourselves. No 109G-10 saw service in the Normandy campaign.

Another source, try and find a JG with a 109G-10 in 3-44, its an internet source, but it seems accurate to me.

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bjagd.htm

As for the Dora, I wont quibble over a month, but September 1944 is its accepted entry date with operational units.

I see that list also has the Spitfire XIV as 4-44, which again, is in error, any source you look up has its service date as 1-44 with 610 Squadron. However, they were mainly used as V-1 defence in G.B. untill 9-44 or so.

If somebody wants to use the 109G-10 as a sub for the 109G-14/AS or something hey fine, but dont pick on the P-38L, it was in service 2 months before.

***************************************************

I also do appreciate the work put into the CT, so please dont construe my occasional comments, criticisms or points as mean spirited or flaming. We may disagree at the end of the day, thats ok too. .

Mister Fork · « **Reply #21 on:** August 16, 2003, 02:45:52 PM »

SQ: Let's say that we have conflicting service dates.

Historians have conflicting dates of service entries, each claiming accuracy. Here in Aces High, we all use a standard service date publication that's been edited more times than Websters Dictionary. I have two sources that confirm my dates , but yours may be right.

The P-38L is an EXCELLENT weapons platform. 10x HVAR 5" Rockets + 2000lbs of irons is what you could call a mean machine. The P-51D has 6x5" HVAR Rockets and up to 2x1000lb options but has over 3 hours of flight time with 100% fuel. It wasn't that both birds may have been in service, but service date and use date are two completely different animals.

Widewing is correct on operation vs. service. Having worked in military units, I often seen dates on equipment use that are often off by months or years. Before we can use a new piece of equipment, couple of things need to happen. First, everyone needs to get trained on the new equipment. Second, the techs need to go on training courses to fix it. Third, spare parts need to be inventoried. When all three are complete, it's considered to be operational.

My thinking and use with perk points is three-fold. One is to limit aircraft that could dominate a planeset (Spit XIV, Tempest, Me-262). Second is to address realistic operational use vs service date (not 100% operational in all units but in service (Me-262, Dora, P-38, and P-51D).

Third is to address one side completely overpowering the other. If I didn't perk the P-51D and the P-38, they would dominate the CT in attack and fighter roles making the gameplay unbalanced. It is however completely subjective based on who you ask. My experience in Aces High is that just a couple of perks (1-2) address these issues. Having played Aces High since Beta 1.0, it's like tweaking an engine. A few coughs, but it idles smooth over a period of time.

GScholz · « **Reply #22 on:** August 16, 2003, 04:33:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mister Fork
The Bf 110G-2 was only used in the Russian front ...

The 110-G2/G4's were used in daytime on the western front on several occasions (in desperation I assume). For instance on the 10th of June 1944 Major Herbert Lutje flew his 110G4 and shot down two P-38's during the US "Tidal Wave" raid.

The 110-G2 is also the only decent jabo ride the LW got in AH.

Mister Fork · « **Reply #23 on:** August 16, 2003, 05:42:07 PM »

Valid point. I've added it, excluding historical context, to balance the arena.

Halo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 16, 2003, 07:15:14 PM »

Saturday night Me262 field 104 already lost and 41 far in the rear and no perks to use the jet anyway. Is that realistic and fun?

Pretty tricky trying to force fights between aircraft available at certain limited periods. The insights in this thread show how tough it is to achieve historical accuracy.

I confess that an aspect of some CT scenarios that really appeals to me is NO PERKS. It's fun to go somewhere, anywhere, and be able to select from the entire aircraft roster without messing with perks.

No, I wouldn't want to see only Temps vs. jets, but I've not seen that happen yet in scenarios without perks. Availability at only certain limited fields seems to address the issue. For example, the Me262s having only one field surviving far in the rear would seem to be plenty enough control for tonight's CT.

GScholz · « **Reply #25 on:** August 16, 2003, 08:09:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mister Fork
Valid point. I've added it, excluding historical context, to balance the arena.

Thanks!

Squire · « **Reply #26 on:** August 16, 2003, 10:19:03 PM »

"Here in Aces High, we all use a standard service date publication that's been edited more times than Websters Dictionary."

Well, Im a CM, and I dont use it. I have no idea who put it together, or if it was ever updated or checked, like I said it contains several obvious errors, but if its a "bible" now, well, im not going to argue religion.

3-44 and 10-44 is not a small difference, and people who are WW2 aviation enthusiasts should be able to find out which is right.

As for the P-38L this isnt the MA, that it does well attacking ground targets is no big deal to anybody, and its hardly "uber" vs a 1945 plane set.

Regards.

Mister Fork · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2003, 01:17:22 AM »

Like I said before Squire, setups are completely subjective based on who you ask.

We've gathered a huge amount of experience on weekly setups based on historical data and past experiece with the limited plane set as you have in the SEA. A fellow CT admin actually recommended removing perks from all but the Tempest and the 262 during our weekly setup discussion.

You are right, this is not the Main Arena. Your comments are noted.

Mike_2851 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 17, 2003, 03:22:36 AM »

I am not a military historian, and I don't know balanced from unbalanced. All I know is I have good weeks and I have not so good weeks. But even on the not so good weeks-I still manage to have fun. I know this really isn't one of the typical whine threads, everyone is just trying to make their point for historical accuracy in the spirit of what the CT is all about, but really, let's just thank the CT staff for providing our fun, and if that don't work-apply to be a staffer-be part of the solution.

Anyway, let's all have a good week

JensK · « **Reply #29 on:** August 18, 2003, 02:52:28 AM »

Great set up! Fork!
I really enjoy this time period '44.

Only thing that annoys me is the spit. I dont seem to have a valid
tactic for that super plane... (When Im flying as german)
But I have to deal with it I guess.