Author Topic: 109F vrs the spit9  (Read 5136 times)

Offline niklas

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2003, 12:43:33 PM »
"If you’ve been to my site, you’ve seen “the offical performance claims of the RAF for the Spit9”

Thx, after reading through your intro page i´d like to see the real documents. Because reading through the tests i always get the impresseion that every machine was specially prepared and assembled for the test instead of coming right out of the factory.

"I have the same F4 numbers from the Kennblatt, however as you’ve noticed they don’t add up and are unreliable. I couldn’t use them. "

You don´t use them because they are too good for you and don´t fit into your crusade against the 109...
Yes there are some typos, the guy who translated the original should wear glasses, he has huge problems to distinguish a 0 and a 6 (the original document must have been in very poor condition). This way he typed 606 instead of 660 and, very funny, 16km altitude for the continious power number. Over 900PS in 16km altitude, wow, now THAT´s a high altitude engine, right? (it´s 10km of course).
Then there´s a mistake by the germans, they used the values from the F1/F2 Kennblatt (for example 495km/h combat power) but listed them for the meanwhile reduced power settings. Speeds would be a bit lower of course.
Those are the errors i can spot currently, otherwise it seems to be ok.
And this means that with combat power the 109F4 is faster than your spit15 @15lb, and with emergency power it would have been pretty equal up to 22k to your Spit LF (which is the optimized variant for speed with the clipped wings). What, on the other hand, would mean it was faster than the standard Spit9 HF @18lb boost.

Where can i find the RAE report? Do you have the docs? I haven´t seen the 601E manual too so far (You´re sure it is a E and not the N) May i see it? Thank you.

In any case you quote the report 110 you should always mention estimated performances Thank you. Just a matter of fairness.

Speaking about the "german" Spit 5 you should also mention the maximum speed the germans reached with the "original" Spit5: only 460km/h in combat mode. When your spit

Speaking about overboosted engines don´t forget the "überlasteten" Motoren of the Mossie chasers on german side. But let´s stay with the F and 9.

"You guys seem to forget that the Spits had their wings strengthened and ailerons shortened "

Sorry, but shortening ailerons may lighten them, logically, but reduce their effect. More wing area is now working "against" the rolling, and less in favour.
109F and standard Spit shared the same handicap, the ailerons did not reach to the wing tips. This outer area, which moves fastest ina roll logically, is working nicely against a roll movement. The Spit is handicaped even more due to the significantly higher wingspan.

niklas

Offline F4UDOA

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2003, 01:14:45 PM »
Speaking of not adding up.

Niklas,

Do you have a detailed weight and loading chart for a 109G of any varient?

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2003, 01:31:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw
A&AEE reports, from which the Spit data comes, in fact constitute the official RAF position of a types performance.  Compared to data from test facilities at Rolls-Royce, Hucknall;  Supermarine, Worthy Down;  Royal Aircraft Establishment,  Farnborough; or the Air Fighting Development Unit, Duxford,  A&AEE’s figures are invariably conservative.   If you’ve been to my site, you’ve
seen “the offical performance claims of the RAF for the Spit9”
[/qoute]

Too much talk, Mike.

Let`s face the facts instead:

On your site there are half a dozen graphs and test which refer to prototype Spits, or Spits running at boost levels they were never cleared for, which you try to sell as typical examples of operational fighters, by not giving vital information regarding there nature, though you are aware of it.

Clearly, Spitfires performance needs this kind of shady help. ;)



Quote
I have the same F4 numbers from the Kennblatt, however as you’ve noticed they don’t add up and are unreliable.  I couldn’t use them.


Oh sure you do, you have the numbers for F-4 with DB 601E from the manual for F-1/F-2 with DB 601N....

Sure, no surprise, the F-4 with +350 HP was as slow as the "Emil". At least according to British estimations.

:rolleyes:



 
Quote
I understand that the DB 601E engine manual (Aug 41) shows the the engine was derated in the F4, just as I figured.


As I understand, in Aug 1941, the Spitfire V was derated to only +9lbs, isn`t it? At least that what even your site tells.



 
Quote

The USAAF report No 110 was prepared by Material Command, Engineering Division, Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio. [/qoute]

And gives estimated speed data.


[qoute] Their findings were very much in line with the RAE’s (Royal Aircraft Establishment) Report No. E.A .39/11.  I take it there is coincidentally a BA Report No. 110 as well.


Their "findings"? Oh, you claim the page in the report with huge letters printed on "ESTIMATED PERFORMANCE" (you forget that part all the time...) has of any real meaning compared to the German figures in the Kennblatt?


[qoute]

Btw, can anyone translate this:  
Bei Notleistung wird Motor stark beansprucht, deshalb von dieser leistungsentnahme auch nur im notfall gebrauch machen
It doesn’t make sense to me.
[/qoute]

I am all yours:

"When using Notleistung [=1.42ata] the engine is heavily stressed, therefore this power setting [as well] should be only used in case of emergency".

I take it is from the DB 601E manual.

Which means it wasn`t banned from using it, unlike as you claim,
though pilots were warned to make spare use of it, ie. only in combat and not in ferry etc.

However, all such "limits" were lifted in May 1942 for DB 601E, at about the same time the Spitfire V was cleared for +12 lbs, a good month before the Spitfire IX appeared (and was limited to +15lbs only, not to mention it didn`t appeared in numbers until late 1942), and a whole YEAR before Spit IXLF appeared and was cleared for +18lbs. The older MkIXs remained derated at +15lbs, limiting their max. speed to 500 kph at SL, 37 kph SLOWER than an F-4 in their post-May1942 state.




[qoute]While I’m on the subject of derated engines in 109s:

Technical Sheet issued by the Quartermaster General (Air Equipment)
Berlin, 18th June 1942.

Subject: DB 605 engine in the Me 109 G
...
The take-off and emergency output with a boost pressure of 1.42 ata. and 2800 revs. may not at present be used. The climbing and combat output with 1.3 atm. and 2600 revs. may, in the case of the older engines (for works numbers see below), be used only when operationally essential.
...

etc...[/qoute]

Typical example of selective qouting, right, Mike? Just like on your site.

I remember you posted that for the first time at butch`s board. You have visited this thread,

http://pub131.ezboard.com/fallboutwarfarefrm31.showMessageRange?topicID=3189.topic&start=1&stop=20

where butch said the following, in response to your posting of this:


" Agreed but this was fixed by June 1943, at this time the ban on 1.42ata was lifted.  "

" While the 701990 did need a fix bacause it was anterior to the piston crown increase, all the old the engines were supposed to have been fixed by mid 1943. The June 1942 ban state that all older engined were to be fixed at their next overhaul."



So the case is clear again: despite very well aware of the real situation, you first attempted to use the DB 605 engine limitations to "prove" the DB 601 was derated; then you selectively qouted that part, "forgotting" to tell the part that all limitation was lifted in June 1943.... oh, and of course, what is in your comparison?

A estimated performance based on derated engine powers of an F-2 in 1941 versus a prototype Spitfire IX at a boost rate it wasn`t cleared until mid-1943. :eek:


Quote
The Spit V used in the comparison against the F2 has top speed identical to that achieved by the Germans with  Spit V EN380. ;)


... nota bene, with all guns and ammo removed from the Spit in the German tests....

Oh, wait...this sounds familiar... "the aircraft was not operationally equipped"... where did I see this? Oh yes,at Mike`s site, for that Spit V which Mike listed vs. the British estimations - which are FAR BELOW the actual performance given in German docs  - of the 109F-2 .


[qoute]You guys seem to forget that the Spits had their wings strengthened and ailerons shortened which improvements were designed and implemented to increase roll rate over that of a Spit V A.[/qoute]

Share us with all the details. A source and qoute would be a good start.

[qoute]I don’t want to get too far off topic but regarding the “stripped Spit XIV” comment, the following comments from No. 610 ORB are interesting:[/qoute]

Which proves the following:

ad1, No Spitfire XIV sorties over Germany until September (despite some claim the opposite), no use of 90 gallon droptanks until then.

ad2, Mike Williams posseses a R-R chart that shows that Griffon 65 in the Spit XIV is not cleared for +25lbs only to +21lbs, (despite that, he lists tests for SpitXIVs at +25lbs at his site and try to sell them as operational ones by holding back information). According to MW`s own chart, which lists possible, but not cleared powers, +25lbs is only possible with strenghtened bearings. These had been not handed over during the war.

ad3, Indirectly he admits that his claims of +25lbs boost usage with Griffon 65 under operational conditions are completely unsupported ("It`s just a matter of time until I dig up..." = he has nothing right now that would point towards or prove it).

And now, the real limits of Griffon 65s:

http://www.pbase.com/image/6383220

As can be seen, the Griffon 61, 65, 66 engines udes in the Spit XIV, Spit 21 is limited to +18 lbs on 100 octane, and +21 lbs on 150 octane. +25lbs is not possible due to main bearing troubles.


In addition, his claim of "R-R sovling the problem" is disproved by a Mk21 test on his own site, date March-July 1945, tells that "The relevant limitations at the time of the test were: Combat, +21 lbs, 2750 RPM" for the Griffon 61 with identical construction to Griffon 65.

Dear Mike, blind, unsupported zealotry is very easy to disprove with hard, detailed facts, as you had just experienced it.

Offline mw

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2003, 01:36:18 PM »
Nah Niklas, those reports are complete (minus the occasional position error curve).   You what to confirm them, hit the archives.  There are other guys that know this.  

"your crusade against the 109... "  hehe, now that's a switch!  Nah, like most guys I'm just trying to figure out how it was.

Maybe your interpretation of the bad F4 numbers is currect, beats me.  I don't think those ratings applied much during the time the F4 was top of the line anyway.

Re roll: think less wing warp, better roll.

"Spit LF (which is the optimized variant for speed with the clipped wings). What, on the other hand, would mean it was faster than the standard Spit9 HF @18lb boost. "

Kinda confusing statement:  The LF prefix signified the aircraft was equipped with the Merlin 66.  Sheesh , I forget offhand but there were  right around 4 thousand of these built on top of which were about 1,300 Merlin 66 engined VIII and another 1,000 Mk. XVIs with the equivalent 266.   By sheer numbers along this type is most representative.  The HF IX wasn't "standard" (if standard means most numerous or representative)  but I think it was a fine performer in its role.

you might want to edit your post for some confusing typos

Offline joeblogs

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« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2003, 01:36:59 PM »
This was a truly great plane for its time, but overshadowed by the 190 and phased out of production in favor of the G series.

It's rate of climb is so good you think it's made of flubber.  It's wing loading is modest, it rolls well, it's WEP lasts a long time.  It has just enough cannons to take out a B-17.  In short it;s a great point interceptor.

It's not fair to compare a plane deployed in 1941 to a model of the Spitfire deployed nearly two years later.  Outside of a pure turn fight, the 109F4 would have the advantage over its contemporary models of the Spitfire and Hurricane.  

-Blogs

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2003, 01:41:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by F4UDOA
Speaking of not adding up.

Niklas,

Do you have a detailed weight and loading chart for a 109G of any varient?



G-2 weights 3100 kg, fully equipped with pilot, ammo, guns, fuel etc.
G-5 or G-6 weights 3150kg, though as there were MANY models, there are small variations.
G-6/R2 (Armed recce variant) weighted 3196 kg.
G-14/U4 weighted 3318 kg.
G-14/ASM weighted 3272 kg.
G-10 weighted 3297 kg.

For example, detailed weight for G-2:

Empty : 2253 kg
Empty equipped : 2580 kg
Crew: 100 kg
Fuel (400 liter internal) : 296 kg
Lubricants: 33 kg
Ammo : 30 + 50 kg = 80 kg
======================
Total: 3100 kg (as given in original)

Offline mw

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2003, 02:09:38 PM »
"Too much talk, Mike"  Hello pot, this is kettle.  ;)  Hehe, fine I'll shut up.  I 'll just let the facts speak; for those interested check my sig site.

Speaking of alot of talk, you're really not saying much there ;)

Oh for those that missed it, the logic I tried to show was that if 1.45 was forbidden on the 601N and the 605A, it may follow that it was banned on the 601E sandwiched in time between the two.

- "No Spitfire XIV sorties over Germany until September"  Don't draw conclusions from 1 squadron.  ;)

- "Mike Williams posseses a R-R chart that shows that Griffon 65 in the Spit XIV is not cleared for +25lbs only to +21lbs"

 As of July 44...  Hey, what it shows is very interesting!  One doesn't often read  that entire squadrons were running at this boost by summer '44.  The guys who did this sim didn't get that much.

The chart you shared is also interesting.  The date matters though!  At the time both the Griffon 61 and 65 were cleared for +21, whereas the Griffon 64,67 and 85 were cleared for +25, which proves the Griffons could handle that level of boost.   Very interesting!  Its just as logical to me that the 65 followed the course of the 64/67 as it would the 61 :)  We'll see...

Funny we're talking Spit XIV, I guess it can't be long before the K4 is tossed about ;)

I don't profess to have it all figured out, but I've learned a fair bit which I've tried to share with others.  I'm still trying to sort out a few things.   Its history, I'm not sure why people take it so personally.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2003, 06:38:20 PM by mw »

Offline Pooh21

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2003, 02:14:12 PM »
The cover of European Air War was a classic, it had a K4 on it.
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #83 on: August 26, 2003, 02:48:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mw


Oh for those that missed it, the logic I tried to show was that if 1.45 was forbidden on the 601N and the 605A, it may follow that it was banned on the 601E sandwiched in time between the two.[/qoute]

Does this pattern also applies to that in both of your named cases the ban was lifted later?



[qoute]
-"No Spitfire XIV sorties over Germany until September"  Don't draw conclusions from 1 squadron.  ;) [/qoute]

Makes sense. ;)




[qoute]The chart you shared is also interesting.  The date matters though!  At the time both the Griffon 61 and 65 were cleared for +21, whereas the griffon 64,67 and 85 were cleared for +25, which proves the Griffons could handle that level of boost. [/qoute]

Eh-eh. Certain series of Griffons, that is. Different internal contruction I believe. Though frankly, I can`t recall any wartime plane using Griffon 85 et co.


[qoute]Funny we're talking Spit XIV, I guess it can't be long before the K4 is tossed about ;) [/qoute]

Unfortunately, due to character limitations of this board, and brother Hop`s loss of interest (stamina?) in the usual through&detailed (=30-40 page single posts :D ) discussions, I am afraid we miss that part, altough it would be certainly an enjoyment, as I have a lot of time at around now, so... ;)

In any case, the K4 is coming, altough not in a form of a forum discussion. :cool:


[qoute]I don't profess to have it all figured out, but I've learned a fair bit which I've tried to share with others.  I'm still trying to sort out a few things.   Its history, I'm not sure why people take it so personally.


Well the intent is nice, but what about telling the whole story? Like, limited boost, old type models, presence of gunpods in tests...?:cool:

Offline gripen

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109F vrs the spit9
« Reply #84 on: August 26, 2003, 06:05:47 PM »
Here is quick and dirty estimates for the Bf 109F-2 roll rates with 30 and 50 lbs stick forces at 3000m (roughly 10k) from a German war time instrumented test.

IAS       30lbs     50lbs
mph       deg/s     deg/s

200       80        80
240       65        85
280       50        88
320       37        90
360       22        45
400       11        25


As can be seen from the data, the Spitfire V with metal ailerons had clearly better roll rate and lower stick forces than Bf 109F-2 at high speed.

It should be noted that NACA and RAE measurements on roll rate of the Spitfire support each other pretty well, NACA just used 30 lbs stick force and RAE 50 lbs. Actually RAE tests are more reliable in this case because it can be seen from the NACA data that they did not count wing twist on the P-36 and P-40.

gripen

Offline niklas

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« Reply #85 on: August 27, 2003, 03:21:43 AM »
Sry gripen, you´re not right here. At 400mph and 50lb (23kg) the 109F2 could reach still 0.85 1/s, or nearly 50°/sec. (page 12).


niklas

Offline gripen

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« Reply #86 on: August 27, 2003, 03:44:22 AM »
Niklas,
You must convert TAS to IAS to get comparable values with RAE and NACA charts.

gripen

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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« Reply #87 on: August 27, 2003, 03:53:40 AM »
No Gripen, an increase of altitude increases the roll rate, not decrease it. In P-80 tests for example, the plane did around 130 deg/sec at 10 000 ft and it increased to 160 at 40 000 ft.

Besides, what you listed for 30 lbs performance is way off from what the pilots tell.

Ie., Dave Soutwood said the following after flying the 109G-2 "Black 6":

"A full stick roll through 360 degrees at 460kph takes 4 to 4.5 seconds without using rudder, and needs a force of around 20 lbf. "


That`s 80-90 deg/sec at 300mph with only 20 lbs stick force. Your calculations are very far off from that...

This should prove interesting as well:

http://isegrim.50megs.com/109data/109G_aileron_stability.jpg

http://isegrim.50megs.com/109data/ROLLRATE%20Spit%20Hurri%20P40%20P36.jpg

In the NACA test with Spit V (metal ailerons), the plane makes only about 50 deg/sec at 320 mph, and needs 30 lbs compared to 20 lbs on the 109.

That hardly points towards the Spit would have lighter forces, and even less that it rolls better at high speeds...
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 03:56:04 AM by VO101_Isegrim »

Offline gripen

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« Reply #88 on: August 27, 2003, 06:22:40 AM »
Isegrim,
The data for the Bf 109F-2 is at 3000m therefore it is roughly directly comparable with NACA and RAE data (10k). This is not a calculation but  an instrumented data set and it will be published in one form or another pretty soon (but not by me, I just did some research work for the project). After that Niklas can also release the report in his page. The data contain also some values at higher altitude.

gripen
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 06:26:28 AM by gripen »

Offline mw

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« Reply #89 on: August 27, 2003, 09:32:18 AM »
Comparing 109F and Spit IX climb:



F4 Kennblatt shows 3327 ft/min which is very close to RAE.  USAAF shows 3,400 ft/min.  Pretty fair agreement between RAE, Kennblatt fur das Flugzeugmuster, and USAAF.

Have at it!  ;)