Author Topic: Question: Constant speed props  (Read 1022 times)

Offline VO101_Isegrim

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2003, 01:21:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 Then, in the case of P-47s, if the RPM varies with the throttle, would that mean it would essentially be a same system as the German planes had? In that case, the CSP and VPP are again confusing for me to understand :eek:


No, it`s different than German systems. Bf109, Fw190 has one lever: it controls boosts, and an automation sets the optimal RPM to that boost level. You move only one lever.

On Spit/P-47 etc., there are two levers (at least...:p ) : one for RPM, another for Boost. You have to use them in the manner Gripen descriped. However, the trouble of handling two levers made Allied designers to make it simplier, i.e. they designed the levers shape in a way that the TWO levers could be GRABBED at once, and moved together. It was a simple solution, but unlike German system, it meant that it produced the optimal Boost/RPM values only at max. power, at say, cruise it was only about the optimal boost/rpm pair values.

Offline HoHun

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2003, 02:32:16 PM »
Hi Flakbait,

>I'm not entirely sure, but I think Aeromech props worked backwards from normal ones. Prop pitch might always be set at full high (redline RPM) and increases in airpseed command the works to lower the RPM. Don't quote me on it though!

There's yet another (probably similar) system relying on a finned spinner that somehow interacts with the main propeller to set the desired propeller speed.

I have no idea how it works in detail, though. I used to think the finned spinner changed the main propeller pitch via planetary gears or something similar, but from observing parked aircraft, the finned part seems to spin freely.

This principle was used on the Bf 108 as well as on Pilatus and Fiat trainers.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline gripen

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2003, 02:39:25 PM »
Isegrim,
Please consult manuals of the Bf 109 and DB 605. At any given power setting (say 1,3ata 2600rpm or what ever) below full throttle height the propeller of the Bf 109 worked as a constant speed propeller ie it keeped 2600 if it was possible within pitch adjusting range of the propeller (as hitech noted, in dive adjusting range might be too little). In the Bf 109, there was a single lever which adjusted rpm and MAP simultaneously. In the P-47 there was one lever for the propeller (rpm) and another for the MAP but these could be connected together with a simple mechanical device, not as sophisticated as automatic system in the Bf 109 and Fw 190 but the from pilot's viewpoint the result was about same in the combat situation ie a single lever for engine controll.

The propeller rarely worked at optimal rpm, generally at low altitude automatic settings were too slow and too fast at high altitude. And during WWII there was certainly not technology to build a device which could have adjusted prop rpm to optimium at any altitude.

gripen

Offline hitech

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2003, 03:05:41 PM »
flakbait: I was not refering to the mechanics of how the prop was controled. Just that they all worked with the same principle.

My RV8 happens to work with OIL to fine pitch/ counter weight to MAX pitch. (suited for acro incase of motor or oil loss prop goes to max pitch i.e. least drag)

Most HARTZELS are OIL to Max pitch/spring to fine pitch. Some use compressed gas instead of spring.


HiTech

Offline HoHun

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2003, 04:11:48 PM »
Hi again,

>There's yet another (probably similar) system relying on a finned spinner that somehow interacts with the main propeller to set the desired propeller speed.

Here's a photograph.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/hohun/argus.jpg

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline flakbait

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2003, 11:51:21 PM »
I thought you might have been refering to that, HT, but you weren't too precise in your earlier post. So I figured I'd cover the bases just for info sharing sake.



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Flakbait [Delta6]
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Offline flaps737

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speed changes
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2003, 02:09:31 PM »
to clarify any confusion, a constant speed prop is going to allow for the fastest acceleration/deceleration out of any system.  With RPM set to maximum, the engine is operating at its peak horsepower for max acceleration, and with the power back to idle and RPM set to max, the propeller acts like a brake to slow down quickly.

Offline Kweassa

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2003, 03:01:57 PM »
The propeller would act as a brake, which will eventually drag the engine RPM down and lower airspeed - is this right?

 ..but I'm curious - would that offer faster decceleration than a system that directly influences RPM itself?

Offline hitech

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2003, 08:34:34 AM »
No thats not right Kweassa.

With Throttle to ideal and MAX RPM. The drag will not  lower the eng RPM. The DRAG is produced by the HIGH engine RPM but now power comming from the Prop is being USED by the engine.

Think of it this way, somthing is turning the engine fast, and it's not the gas burning.


There is also increased drag effects on the prop as it turns faster .

HiTech

Offline Mathman

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2003, 11:42:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Can you fawn a little more blatantly?


HAHAHAH!!! WTG Karnak!

You are making great progress.  I think it is safe to say that you are no longer in the Ted Kaczynski stage.

Offline EDO43

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PROPS 101
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2003, 03:52:58 PM »
Wow, some of you guys have some long winded posts....LOL, mine will be too and probably more info than you're looking for.  Ahh....hitech's post regarding which lever to move first brings back many a memory from A&P school......Oh those were the days.....tearing down and rebuilding R-2800's, puttin the Ham-standard props on....runnin em up......aaahhhhhh....that was the life.  Real oil, not this synthetic stuff I work with now....yuk!

Now, given a, let's say, round engine....the 2800 for example.  there are 4 controls.  1.  Throttle  2. Prop control 3. mixture control.  4.  Supercharger control.  All four are important and to avoid a jug leaving home, ya gotta do what hitech said in his earlier post.  Now for grins let me say this: (hope this helps a bit to straighten out the confusion)

1.  Throttle:  Primarily controls manifold pressure (with a couple exceptions)

2.  Prop Control: Primarily controls the prop position through a governer of some kind.  Since we're talking constant speed here, the prop control has three positions full low pitch (increase rpm), full high pitch (decrease rpm) and everywhere inbetween, which is the constant speed range.

3.  Mixture Control (don't have in AH) controls the fuel/air mixture for best performance/economy.  Also shuts down the engine...No, you don't use the magneto switch to shut the engine off.

4.  Supercharger control (not in AH):  Controls the amount of boost given to the cylinders.

Everything sinking in alright?  I  think most will agree on those.  Now,  when we say increase/decrease RPM we're referring to the engine, not the prop.  I think you're straight on that.  Now on to the next thing....building blocks of information....gotta love it! LOL

When you start a high powered recip. engine, like the 2800, you'll start it with the mixture control in idle cutoff, both mags on.  You've primed it with the primer and as soon as the engine fires and starts to run, you move the mixture to "full rich"....this is how the engine is run before takeoff.  It keeps the engine cooler using full rich.  Now, the engine is running....rumble, burp, rumble, rumble, burp......(valve overlap) R2800 doesn't like to idle.....it's a runner!  Now, the prop control should be at the "full increase rpm" (low pitch) stop.  If you look at your manifold gauge, you should see a pressure which is way under atmospheric.... (no boost)  Next we set the engine rpm to 2200 with the throttle (one of the exceptions mentioned above) and do our magneto checks.....75-150 rpm drop per mag.....not more than a 50 rpm split between em.  Ok, thats' normal...now we check the constant speed range...drop the throttle to around 1400-1800 rpm and let it stable out.  move the prop control out of the "full increase rpm" position.  The further aft you move it, the higher the prop pitch will become and the engine will start to "load" dropping rpm.... Now if you leave the prop control in that position (other than the two stops)...moving the throttle will change the prop pitch to either a higher or lower blade angle depending on which way you move the throttle.....increase throttle=increase prop pitch  (constant speed remember?)  decrease throttle=decrease prop pitch.  During this time, if you look at the engine RPM gauge, it'll be constant (it'll move slightly with abrupt changes in throttle setting, but return to it's selected rpm) BUT, if you look at the manifold gauge you'll see it move up and downas you move the throttle.   Forward, increase prop pitch, your manifold pressure will rise accordingly. (don't worry, there's a red arc where you're not supposed to exceed).  As you move the throttle back toward idle, prop pitch decrease, the manifold pressure will decrease.  Now if you grab the prop control and jerk it back toward you to the "full decrease rpm" stop, you've just blown the jugs off your engine and oil's going all over the damn place!  The engine is making all kinds of bad noises which it shouldn't.  The mechanics are PISSED!  However, if you do it slowly and watch the manifold pressure, you may be able to get it to the full high pitch stop without overboosting the engine.  If not, you'll have to lower the throttle before going any further.  Any clearer?  I hope it is....

That's how a constant speed prop works...

There are three basic kinds (excluding the exotic models like the one bladed prop) of propellers in this world. They are:  

Fixed pitch
Ground Adjustable
Variable Pitch

In the variable pitch category you have the constant speed prop, and the two position prop.  The only difference between the two is what makes them work.  the constant speed uses a prop goverener and the two position prop has what's called a three-way valve.

We won't get into the mixture control or the supercharger control as hitech didn't model them in the game.  Suffice to say that throttling back in the game has the same effect as moving the mixture control to "auto-lean".  and presing the E key after landing has the same effect as moving the mixture into "idle-cutoff".  In AH we have some really super performng engines...They run at full power all day long and produce sea level peformance at 30k!  I like it :)


FWIW

EDO;)
Mawey -a-  tsmukan

Offline gripen

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Question: Constant speed props
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2003, 06:17:09 PM »
I think that the best way to understand this braking issue is to think engine output. When you throttle down you actually reduce engine output and to keep rpm constant the constant speed propeller will change to lower pitch. Note that propeller will produce thrust all the time if the pitch adjusting range of the propeller allows this (and engine still does some output) . So deacceleration depends how much you reduce engine output which is not allways same as reducing rpm; if engine produces same output at lower rpm a constant speed propeller will just change to even higher pitch (if available).

There might be some real braking effect by propeller if pitch adjusting range of the propeller is too little, then engine would overrev. Another issue is negative pitch, there were some experiments with negative pitch for shortening landing run, but AFAIK these were with experimental propellers.

gripen