Author Topic: Effective firing range in BOB?  (Read 646 times)

Offline Charge

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« on: September 09, 2003, 08:26:18 AM »
Does anyone have records of how close the British pilots usually flew the 111s or other bombers before they fired their 303's.

I have also wondered the firepower of two wings (8) of 303's.

Did Spitfires wings bend more and thus did its guns have more scatter than Hurricane's which had its guns stacked more tightly in the wing?

Does anyone have any data of what was Spitfire's firing scatter for any distance?

And about the ammunition velocity: The muzzle velocity was around 750m/s but what was left of it in ranges of 300 and 600 meters? Was it effective at all to 600 meters? The projectile weight is 10 grams. Is there a way to calculate? (Of course there is..)
 

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« Last Edit: September 09, 2003, 08:33:28 AM by Charge »
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Offline Flyboy

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2003, 10:27:50 AM »
ive just finished reading a book called "Fly for your life" by larry forrester that tells the story of robert stanfurd tuck. one of the greatest aces of the war.

in this book there are several notes for spitfires and hurricanes shooting down 109s in ranges over 500yards

it also notes that when they attacked bombers they got real close. even below 100 yards

Offline Oldman731

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2003, 12:12:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
in this book there are several notes for spitfires and hurricanes shooting down 109s in ranges over 500yards

it also notes that when they attacked bombers they got real close. even below 100 yards

Perhaps the longer range shots really did happen.  Heck, there are exceptions to most rules.  But my sense is that WWII pilots generally agreed that (a) pilots tended to grossly overestimate the actual range, and (b) most kills were taken at ranges of 300 yards or less, and generally less that 200 yards.  I think AH's BoB plane set does an excellent job of duplicating this.

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Offline SELECTOR

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2003, 12:22:27 PM »
fly past magazine has a special BOB edition out this month, and has a good artical on the set up and hamonisation of the guns...now i dont have mag to hand as its at work, but if i remember correctly they tried a few set ups..

1st was a equal spread vertical and horizontaly 12 ft at 250 yards
2nd was a circle can't remember diameter.. at 250 yards
3rd and favoured was a rectangle box 12ft x 8 ft at 250 yards

the 303s worked ok until the oposition started using armour..
also 1 20mm cannon with 60 rounds weighed same as 3 303 brownings with 300 rounds.

i will edit if i got them wrong tomorrow.. but i think i got them right

Offline Karnak

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2003, 01:56:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
AH's BoB plane set does an excellent job of duplicating this.

Except the Ju88A-4.
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Offline HoHun

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Re: Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2003, 02:02:31 PM »
Hi Charge,

>Does anyone have records of how close the British pilots usually flew the 111s or other bombers before they fired their 303's.

It's my impression that the RAF pre-war standard tactics had to be thrown overboard in the course of the Battle of Britain, leading to a lot of experimentation (and quite a bit of confusion) in combat. As a result, it would be hard to establish a typical firing range.

From anecdotal evidence, it seems to me that often, fire was opened at very long range, which may be one of the reason why individual bombers could survive attacks by entire flights of fighters. They took many hits, but not concentrated enough to bring them down.

One could say that it was not unusual during the Battle of Britain that fighter pilots opened fire beyond effective range.

Another difficulty in establishing the firing ranges is that the 7.7 mm MGs required long bursts even at effective range, so that a fighter might open fire at long range but keep firing until it was very close. "I opened fire at 400 yards and shot down the bomber" could still mean the decisive hits were achieved at less than 100 yards right before breaking away.

>Did Spitfires wings bend more and thus did its guns have more scatter than Hurricane's which had its guns stacked more tightly in the wing? Does anyone have any data of what was Spitfire's firing scatter for any distance?

The Spitfire's pattern certainly was worse than the Hurricane's due to the position of 4 guns far out on the wings. Random dispersion might not have been noticably worse in level flight, though, but naturally the outer wings bend more in turns than the inner wings. (And I suspect the Hurricane wing might have been stiffer to begin with.)

>Was it effective at all to 600 meters?

Armour would stop 7.7 mm bullets, most other parts of the aircraft wouldn't, not even at 600 m. I don't believe bullet effectiveness against an aircraft really had dropped much at 600 m, though its armour piercing capability certainly would.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Pooh21

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2003, 04:58:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Except the Ju88A-4.


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Offline thrila

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2003, 05:46:12 PM »
It's very difficult to down with .303's.   The main problem is the accuracy of the ju88 guns and the pilot/gunners being extremely tough to kill, they take a lot of bullets (it's as if they are behind an invisible plate of steel or something.
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Offline Batz

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2003, 08:34:38 PM »
It was hard to bring down in real life, so was the he111. The he111 was reportedly "tougher" to bring down then the ju88.

FYI the in rl. the Ju88a4 wasnt in BoB it the a1 and a5.

What is missing is the Do 17s that got chewed up in BoB.

The a4 is a fine sub in any BoB event. Dotn let the alllied whines fool you. I remeber in 1 tod set up shooting 4 ju88s down by myself in a hurri. Wasnt that hard. Just stay out of their rear.

Work from 3/9 they are easy to bring down.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 01:31:17 AM by Batz »

Offline Pooh21

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2003, 09:29:38 AM »
Thats an artifact of AHs invisble gunner armor that is also subject to random kills. (How the heck did the spit that Ho'd my b17s kill the tail gunner?WTH? I dove in straight down on that B17 with my 190 and turned his tail gunners window into a massive hitsprite and the weenys still shooting!?!) Ju-88s are hard to bring down cause of their speed. But if you get in range they are dead meat. Hurris are one of my favorite rides in a BoB situation, and Ju88s are always trouble.
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Offline joeblogs

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Re: Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2003, 12:05:21 PM »
Close enough to open the cabin door, step inside, and shoot the pilot in the head...

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by Charge
Does anyone have records of how close the British pilots usually flew the 111s or other bombers before they fired their 303's.

I have also wondered the firepower of two wings (8) of 303's.

Did Spitfires wings bend more and thus did its guns have more scatter than Hurricane's which had its guns stacked more tightly in the wing?

Does anyone have any data of what was Spitfire's firing scatter for any distance?

And about the ammunition velocity: The muzzle velocity was around 750m/s but what was left of it in ranges of 300 and 600 meters? Was it effective at all to 600 meters? The projectile weight is 10 grams. Is there a way to calculate? (Of course there is..)
 

-Charge+

Offline frank3

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2003, 08:46:10 AM »
ROFL!

Offline Glasses

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2003, 03:56:14 PM »
Listen to Iron Maiden's Aces High it'll make sense then. :D

Offline Tony Williams

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Effective firing range in BOB?
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2003, 04:40:27 AM »
This is from 'Flying Guns: WW2':

"Another thorny issue was harmonisation. At the beginning of the war, the official Fighter Command practice dictated a convergence point at 400 yards (366 m). This “Dowding spread” was intended to increase the probability of hits: At typical fighting distances, the guns covered an area roughly corresponding to the distance between the engines of a twin-engined bomber. It was reasoned that inexperienced pilots and those with less shooting ability profited from having dispersion at normal combat distances. A similar pattern was recommended by the Air Ministry. This was a shotgun approach, based on the assumption that a few hits would be sufficient. But trials in December 1939 and early combat experience indicated that the strong metal construction of modern combat aircraft, with stressed skins and self-sealing fuel tanks, was able to absorb a surprising number of hits. (Later several German bombers would return home with as many as 200 rifle-calibre hits.) This necessitated a switch to convergence at a shorter distance, to concentrate the hits in a smaller area.
   
A number of squadrons harmonised their guns to converge at 350 yards (320 m) or 250 yards (230 m), and the latter option was preferred by expert pilots. In March 1940 Dowding finally decided to change the harmonisation distance to 250 yards, although the evidence from combat experience and wreck examinations was still too incomplete to be decisive. The argument was not settled until June, when combat reports indicated a significantly higher (53% vs. 39%) success rate with the shorter harmonisation distance.

This was not a definitive end to the debate. When more powerful armament was installed, advantages were again seen in some dispersion of fire. The strongest argument in favour was that very flew pilots were able to judge correctly the amount of lead required for deflection shooting. In May 1942 the RAF would again opt for a greater dispersion of fire to generate more hits."

There are also some official diagrams showing the effect on a target (He 11 at 6 o/clock) at different ranges included in the book.

It is worth emphasising the point that Henning makes. Just because the guns were initially harmonised at 400 yards didn't mean that was the expected combat distance; it was assumed to be the maximum distance, with reasonable concentration of fire between the expected 200-400 yards firing range. In fact, they had to get much closer than they originally thought they would.

It is also worth mentioning that the protection provided to German planes seems to have been steadily improved during 1940.

As far the effectiveness of .303 ammo is concerned, this is also from 'Flying Guns':

"These results are supported by tests carried out by the British in January 1941 to compare British and German rifle-calibre steel-cored AP ammunition. The performance of the .303" (11.28 g at 735 m/s) and the 7.92 mm (of unspecified type, but measured at 11.53 g at 788 m/s) was first tested against "homogeneous hard armour". The thickness necessary to achieve immunity from this ammunition at 183 m was 12.0 mm for the .303", 12.5 mm for the 7.92 mm, when striking "at normal" to the armour (i.e. at 90º). The British ammunition was significantly worse when the striking angle changed to 70º; only 6.6 mm was needed for immunity in comparison with 8.9 mm to protect against the German round.

The test then changed to shooting at the rear of the long-suffering Bristol Blenheim at the same distance, involving penetrating the rear fuselage before reaching the 4 mm armour plate protecting the rear gunner, which was angled at 60º to the line of fire. The results in this case were reversed; 33% of the .303" rounds reached the armour and 6% penetrated it. In contrast, only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated. The British speculated that the degree of stability of the bullets (determined by the bullet design and the gun's rifling) might have accounted for these differences.
The Germans helpfully tested other nations' ammunition as well, and this produced some surprising results. They rated the British .303" AP as capable of penetrating 9 mm / 100 m / 90º, but only 2 mm after first penetrating the angled dural skin (which contrasts sharply with the results the British observed). Comparable figures for the Soviet 7.62 mm API were 10.5 mm and 4 mm, but the API/T fell to a maximum of just 6.5 mm; the steel AP core was lighter as the tracer used up some of the space (a common disadvantage of small-calibre AP/T bullets)."

Clearly, even the alloy structure of a small plane like the Blenheim was capable of absorbing or deflecting the rifle-calibre bullets before they even reached the armour.

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