Author Topic: I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..  (Read 1155 times)

Offline Thud

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2003, 07:37:44 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yes Arafat has no power whatsover...

Its funny you say I'm biased but you just said the intifada is justified and even the fault of Netenyahu...


Even you can distinguish between 'understandable' and 'justified'. Of course you had to forget the difference because otherwise you wouldn't have an answer. Never mind, you're known for that.
 
On the latter part you were right though, I do believe that Netanyahu is one of the people responsible for the current intifadah. As always the fault can be traced to both sides, but it will nevertheless take decades to repair the damage done by that visionless primal simpleton.

Offline Fishu

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2003, 07:38:23 AM »
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Originally posted by Krusher
and surprisingly enough the UN didnt make any new resolutions calling on Arafats gang to quit killing civilians ! And didnt Hammas call for the killing of Sharon?

pretty one sided eh?


I don't think Arafat has any word on the killings.
So it's a moot point to tell him anything.. ridding him will just create more martyre candidates.

Offline bozon

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2003, 07:44:33 AM »
allow me to correct you on fine points thud:
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negotiations failed because BOTH sides didn't submit satisfactory proposals

There never was a palestinian proposal - not only in camp david but never. Arafat was always afraid to tell what he'll be willing to give.

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And if you think it was Arafat who started this particular intifadah you're even more deluded than all your highly amusing posts have led me to believe. He didn't even encourage or tolerate it willingly,

And you asked him that? how do you know?
Arafat is using the Syrian-Lebanon alibi - "it's not me, it's the Hisballa/Hamas/name-the-organization and I have no control over them". He pretends to represent the palestinian nation, it's his responsibility.

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2003, 07:53:19 AM »
I wonder how many mothers of murdered Isreali school children make such a fine distinction between the words "understandable" and "justified."

Sad sad sad, only 50 years ago our european grandparents to wipe out their whole race and now you are making a distnction between justfied and understandable when it comes to blowing them up on city busses.

Offline ra

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2003, 07:54:48 AM »
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I don't think Arafat has any word on the killings.

So why do you think so many Israelis want him dead?  They understand the martyrdom aspect better than anyone.  His job in the war against Israel is to keep Westerners sympathetic to Palestinians while the Muslim world tears down Israel.
 
Fifteen years ago, before Arafat became a 'world leader', the general concensus in the West was that there could be no peace in the mid-east until Palestinians got their own state.  Since then Arafat has succeeded in bringing much of the West to the conclusion that the only way to have peace is to get rid of Israel.   There may never be peace while there is an Israel, but there definitely will never be peace while Arafat is in charge.

ra

Offline Thud

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2003, 08:03:50 AM »
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Originally posted by bozon
allow me to correct you on fine points thud:
 
There never was a palestinian proposal - not only in camp david but never. Arafat was always afraid to tell what he'll be willing to give.

 
And you asked him that? how do you know?
Arafat is using the Syrian-Lebanon alibi - "it's not me, it's the Hisballa/Hamas/name-the-organization and I have no control over them". He pretends to represent the palestinian nation, it's his responsibility.

Bozon


There was a formal palestinian counter-proposal at Taba, remember? It ricocheted because of the statement on future negotiations on the 1967 borders. Search the net, go to a library or something before making statements.

And if you had the slightest idea about the political/cultural authority relationship between the PA and its people you would never have made the statement on the syria-lebanon case. They are incomparable and furthermore, Arafat hasn't got the control over the groups in question to arrange such a construction, even if he wanted. Do you want to kill king Fahd because he represents his people among who were the 9/11 terrorists.

thought so,
now get back in your basket

Offline GRUNHERZ

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2003, 08:05:59 AM »
So what exactly does Arafat do?

Offline Thud

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2003, 08:08:05 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I wonder how many mothers of murdered Isreali school children make such a fine distinction between the words "understandable" and "justified."

Sad sad sad, only 50 years ago our european grandparents to wipe out their whole race and now you are making a distnction between justfied and understandable when it comes to blowing them up on city busses.


Well if it's already time to lower yourself to that level of discussion ethics, very well.
When I think of that period i think a.o. of the words 'deportation' and ethnic cleansing. Now who is being deported by whom in the palestininian-israeli conflict... And who is dominant in society and tries to root out the other side's population from society?

Thank you.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2003, 08:13:00 AM »
I think its the ones blowing up civilans on busses.  But obviously the irony of the Jewish position today is not lost on me. I'll bring that up when I'm more pissed off them, like for example if they kill arafat, for now I'll stick to criticizing yasser for his stupidity in rejecting the peace negotiations.

Anyhow your cute distiction between understandable and justified is sickening in this case.

Offline Toad

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2003, 08:17:28 AM »
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....The council's late Monday decision to go to a vote on a resolution drafted by Palestinian U.N. envoy Nasser al-Kidwa capped a day of harsh debate in which more than 40 governments took the floor to condemn a decision by the Israeli security cabinet to get rid of Arafat through unspecified means.

But Washington, Israel's closest ally, was "not prepared to support the resolution in its present form" because it did not explicitly condemn terrorism by Palestinian militant groups and was "very lopsided" against Israel, U.S. Ambassador John Negroponte told reporters.....


Might have, could have been different if there'd been a balanced resolution upon which to vote.

I wonder which SC nations would veto a resoltuion drafted by the Israeli UN envoy concerning the situation?
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Offline bozon

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2003, 08:38:03 AM »
thud:
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There was a formal palestinian counter-proposal at Taba, remember? It ricocheted because of the statement on future negotiations on the 1967 borders.

ok, there was one, and it didn't ricochet because of borders only. The refugees solution suggested was unacceptable to the Israeli side.

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And if you had the slightest idea about the political/cultural authority relationship between the PA and its people you would never have made the statement on the syria-lebanon case.

well, I happen to have that slightest idea and I don't get your point.

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now get back in your basket

aren't we full of ourselves...

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline Rude

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2003, 08:41:25 AM »
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Originally posted by Dowding
Yes, but the difference is that Hamas is an outlawed terrorist organisation whereas Sharon's Israeli government is the elected head of a UN recognised State. Hamas has already been condemned given its status as a terrorist group - it's automatic.


Yep...that UN condemnation of Hamas really means alot.

The PLO does not want peace....they want Isreal drivin into the sea and have stated the same openly for some 30 years....under Clinton, they had 97% of what they openly ask for, yet declined the this first step towards some form of reconciliation.

A warm and fuzzy solution will never be possible in that region.

Offline Jack55

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2003, 09:12:00 AM »
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So what exactly does Arafat do?


Isn't he a terrorist?

Offline Nashwan

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2003, 09:15:15 AM »
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Fifteen years ago, before Arafat became a 'world leader', the general concensus in the West was that there could be no peace in the mid-east until Palestinians got their own state. Since then Arafat has succeeded in bringing much of the West to the conclusion that the only way to have peace is to get rid of Israel.

I don't know any western government that believes Isral has to be removed for peace. I don't think it's a widely held view amongst many westerners either.

Arafat became a "world leader" in 1975, with his speech to the UN, and the Arab league recognition of the PLO as the sole representative of the Palestinians.

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So what exactly does Arafat do?

Arafat builds a consensus amongst different Palestinian groups, and rejects outside influence. That's why he's survived so long.

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I wouldn't accept Barak's offer if I was a palestinian - still, there's big difference from not accepting an offer during peace talks, and starting another terrorism campaign.

I wouldn't have accepted Barak's offer during Camp David either. Not only was it a terrible deal for the Palestinians, it was probably unworkable from their point of view.

But the second Intifada didn't really start as a terrorism campaign, certainly not in the way it developed.

According to the ICT database (ICT is an Israeli counter terrorism institute, set up and run by senior, mostly retired, people from Mossad, the Israeli government etc), the first incident in the second Intifada was a bomb attack on an Israeli patrol in the Gaza strip, which killed 1 soldier. The second was a riot on Temple Mount, in which 6 Palestinians were shot dead by the Israeli police.  Third was an Israeli soldier shot in the West Bank, fourth a Jordanian shot by the IDF, fifth a Palestinian child killed in "unclear circunmstances", (which TV cameras seemed to show as being shot by the IDF)

Sixth fatal incident was 4 Palestinian students shot dead during a protest/riot in the West Bank, seventh 3 Palestinians killed in a clash with the IDF in Gaza, 8th 2 Palestinian paramedics shot by the IDF in the West Bank, 9th a Palestinian youth killed during a "clash" with the IDF in the West Bank, 10th a Palestinian youth killed during a demonstration/riot in Gaza. 11th a 1 year old Palestinian girl killed by a settler, 12th 2 Palestinian policemen killed by the IDF during a confrontation in the West Bank.

Those are the incidents in the last week of September, at the begining of the Intifada.

It goes on like that for some time, Palestinian riots/demonstrations in the West Bank, Palestinian police clashing with the IDF in the West Bank, gun and bomb attacks on Israeli military patrols in the West Bank (and Gaza).

There were also riots by Israeli Arabs in Israel, during which 13 Israeli Arabs were killed by the police.

The first fatal attacks inside Israel came on the 30th October, when an Israeli was found stabbed to death, and 2 security guards were shot dead in an attack on a national insurance building in Jerusalem.

Even the ICT, who try to claim that Palestinian civilians killed are overwhelmingly your men, and therefore not civilians at all, say this about the begining of the Intifada:

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An initial phase characterized by very high Palestinian fatalities and relatively low Israeli fatalities;


The first phase of the al-Aqsa conflict began on 27 September 2000, and ended in late December 2000. At that time Palestinian fatalities tapered off sharply, and remained generally lower until the next September. December 21, 2000 has been chosen as the last day of this first phase. As a first approximation, we can label this phase of the conflict the “real or apparent popular uprising” phase (leaving room for uncertainty as to whether this “uprising” was genuinely spontaneous, or was manufactured by Palestinian leaders), as most of the fatalities appear to have occurred as the result of Palestinian mass demonstrations or riots, and the Israeli response to them.


The Intifada didn't begin as a wave of terrorism, it began as a series of riots and demonstrations, and evolved in to attacks on Israelis in the territories, and from there evolved in to attacks within Israel.

That suggests that it was a planned event, or that the terrorist attacks inside Israel were not planned as part of the Intifada. Suicide bombings inside Israel would have been easier early on, because of the lower security level.

Offline Dowding

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I dont think Israel should expel or kill Arafat..
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2003, 09:17:33 AM »
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only 50 years ago our european grandparents to wipe out their whole race  


Your European grandparents maybe. Not mine, my Croatian friend. They were busy fighting the Nazis, not rolling over and taking it up the bellybutton from them. :)

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Yep...that UN condemnation of Hamas really means alot.


It is if you are arguing the condemnation doesn't exist. Kinda obvious if you think about it.

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they had 97% of what they openly ask for...


I'd like to see the maths behind this apparently arbitrary statistic. Is that 97% on the money, or to two significant figures?

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A warm and fuzzy solution will never be possible in that region.


If you're Palestinian, probably not... and likewise neither for the Israelis. At least the latter can pretend they live in a temperate climate and use several times the water the Palestinians are allowed to use, which is nice.
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