Author Topic: Alittle more realism please  (Read 858 times)

Offline JB42

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Alittle more realism please
« on: August 11, 2003, 11:45:42 AM »
Some of the attraction for the special events are the plane matchups and the chance to rewrite, not relive, history. The reason i write this post is hopefully some of the event creators read this and take note. The first topic on the list is altitude. As of past few weeks, a lot of early to midwar events have takin place. Dispite the fact that most planes used in these scenarios were neither pressurized or designed for it, I still find A6M2s at 26k feet for example. Can you say "DEAD"? Please set a wind barrier and put a stop to the insanity. Second topic is numbers. I'll use Polesti as an example. If a country is allowed to use bomber formations, they MUST be included in the numbers. In a 60-40 split where there are 20 axis flyers that leaves 30 allied flyers. That makes 90 bombers for 20 pilots to shoot down. Ummm I don't think so. And last point, use some creativity. Say for instance, if Germany captures England, Allies wouldnt get Spit9s and the Germans wouldnt need 109G-6s and 190Ds. Just some thoughts, not to meant as any type of slam.
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Offline Squire

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2003, 12:34:46 AM »
90 bombers to 20 fighters...when was it ever supposed to be an objective for the interceptors to down all the bombers? thats not the point. The 20 fighters engage *some* of the bombers...not all, some, and there is no rule saying they have to barge in from dead 6 either, thats their choice if they do.

"Ploesti" had a 100 percent unescorted force...all you are expected to do is cause casualties as the LW, not stop the entire force dead. If the victory conditions need to be re written to reflect that, then thats what needs to be done.

Ratio of escorts, if there are any...yes, thats a concern, agree there, it has to be reaonable.

I cant find any evidence that many early or mid war fighters lacked oxygen, allied or axis. The P-39D had some troubles, thats the only one I can find so far. Fighters often flew to high altitudes, and they did not require pressurisation.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2003, 01:52:15 AM by Squire »
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Offline Flossy

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2003, 01:55:10 AM »
I'm confused - do you want more realism or more creativity (ie less realism)?  You seem to contradict yourself in the same message.  :)
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Offline JB42

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2003, 09:58:02 AM »
Yes Polesti was a good number of bombers unescorted to an nme target. However, they certainly in no way resemble the flight model of this game. Laser guided 50 cal cures for cancer on a completely steady and stable platform. So improvise to make the games quarks fit the historical account. For instance, the last Polesti scenario i was in had formations enabled. I dont think this was even close to the actaul account. Second, are you telling me that a pilot in a plane at 27k without pressurization could survive for any length of time? If so, I stand corrected.

Flossy, don't automatically assume that creativity and realism are opposites. Read the context that I used the word in. It's refering to a completly hypothetical situation were being creative can be used to help the sense of it having really happened.

have to go, at work. will write more in a bit
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" Does this Pony make my butt look fat?" - JB11

" I'd rather shoot down 1 Spit in a 109 than 10 109s in a Spit." - JB42

Offline Squire

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2003, 01:30:50 PM »
What did the B-17, B-24, P-51, P-47, and P-38 pilots do at 25,000-30,000 feet? not to mention the LW sent up to engage them. Combats with Spitfires and 109Es took place well above 25k in 1940 even. They could and did survive in non pressurized cockpits. Edmund Hillary didnt die on Everests summit, but he was cold.

Btw the SBDs at Midway came in at 18,000 feet, the IJN would have to be at 20,000 or better, minimum, to engage with high CAP. Way too high for no O2. No Oxygen would mean no real possibility of intercepting US attack planes.

I agree with your other points, of course the Ju88 has the same benefit from its stable gunners. Lets hope AH2 gives more realism to gunnery, I wouldnt mind it, but for now, it will have to do.
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Offline Esme

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2003, 01:31:35 PM »
With regard to high-alt flying, whilst both fighters and bombers had oxygen supplies, it's my understanding that most bombers had greater supplies per person than most fighters (doubtless due to their generally greater endurance).  Also, little maters like the uncomfortableness of flying at altitude, and so having to wear an oxygen mask, in very cold air, etc. aren't (can't be!) modelled.

Whilst accounts I've read of bomber ops in no way give the impression that the crews were comfortable, doubtless they were better off, generally being able to move around (even use toilet facilities in some planes) than a fighter pilot strapped in his seat for the sortie duration.

Add in that climbing to extreme altitude takes time and fuel, bombing at alt is less accurate, effects on plane performance and handling... and there ARE reasons why one might not always want to climb as high as one is able.

Personally, I'd like to see oxygen supply modelled by having blackouts occur if pilots exhaust their planes oxygen supply. Of course, you'd have to add a command, maybe

.oxy  to toggle oxygen supply on and off, so it wasnt used up when flying at low alt (unless a pilot forgot to turn it off if theyd been using it).

Also, fatigue/discomfort effects from flying at high alt might perhaps be "modelled" by introducing a tiny amount of sluggishness in stick responsiveness, and in aiming accuracies of guns.

I've remarked often elsewhere on other aspects that AH needs to improve on to allow greater realism. I'm sitting back and waiting to see what AHII brings...

If the LW had had a ratio as good as 20 fighters to take on 90 bombers from 1943 onwards, they would have been well pleased!  But a well-executed attack even by a small force can have a big impact even if not many planes are destroyed. In one game in another sim, the commander of III/JG2 took us into a gap in our air defences over eastern Sicily, where the Allies had previously knocked out a mobile radar unit, as it was an obvious route for a large attack force to sneak through.

He guessed right, and timed it perfectly. As we arrived over the Straits of Messina, still climbing, the sky ahead was black with dots, Allied bombers and their escorts. We later learned that our FW190s had been outnumbered by about 5 or 6 to 1, and between us we didnt get many kills (just 3 IIRC, for a loss of two.), but we completely disrupted their attack. Many of their bombers ditched their loads and ran, only a few, I think, pressed on. It was difficult for them to tell who was friend and who was foe, whilst for us it was a very unfriendly, but target-rich environment.  Fearing a massacre, their buffs decided retreat to fight another day was the best policy (correctly. If we HAD massacred them, they wouldnt have had much of an attack force left in the next frame).


Ah, memories... :-)

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Offline Squire

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2003, 01:40:38 PM »
"Fearing a massacre, their buffs decided retreat to fight another day was the best policy"

In regards to realism, thats what I want to see more of. The notion that every combat is not "all or nothing", you actually retreat to survive if thats the prudent course, just like they did in WW2.

I feel thats a much bigger issue than climbing to high alt.
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Offline rshubert

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2003, 12:58:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
"Fearing a massacre, their buffs decided retreat to fight another day was the best policy"

In regards to realism, thats what I want to see more of. The notion that every combat is not "all or nothing", you actually retreat to survive if thats the prudent course, just like they did in WW2.

I feel thats a much bigger issue than climbing to high alt.


Actually, JB42, one of the points of pride for the USAAF was that the only thing that ever turned them back was weather.

They NEVER turned tail and went home, even when suffering 10-15% casualties on some missions.  10%, btw, is considered really high in real life.  Units that receive 20% casualties are considered combat-ineffective, and relieved for rest and reformation.

B17 crews wore oxygen masks, and electrically heated flight suits, gloves, and boots.  Then they put on as much stuff as they could, trying to keep warm.  Their oxygen supply was plentiful enough for a long mission, but they weren't comfortable at all.  They were miserable, cold, and scared.

Fighter cockpits were heated, but not pressurized.  Pilots wore oxygen masks and lots of sheepskin to stay warm even then.  

Our AH bombers suffer MUCH higher casualties than rl bombers, even considering the accuracy of the guns.  Part of that is a numbers issue--the 8thAF typically put up 3 or 4 hundred bombers on a LIGHT mission--1000 on an all out effort.  In here, the fighters almost outnumber the bombers most of the time!

Offline gunnss

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2003, 02:23:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JB42
Laser guided 50 cal cures for cancer on a completely steady and stable platform.


OK I've been watching the Kicks about The .50 for some time.... and its time for a reality Check,  First I was a Maw Duce instructor in Germany for 3 years I was stationed at Piermasens and used the ranges at Baumholder for yearly Quals and training for new troops.  Second I was active in Desert storm and Provide Comfort and frequently acted as door gunner on a .50 in a CH-47 .

I could hit the drivers compartment of a BTR-60 80 to 100 % of the time from 1200 meters using a M2 that was at least 18 years old......   I could Blow a "goat" off of the mouintain side from as far away as we could see him, the regular gunner was better than me......

The only real diffrence I find is that AH gunners tend to spray wildly rather than bumping out 3 to 6 round bursts.

Lastly a watermelon Hook is a way rougher ride than any aircraft and accuracy didnt seem to suffer.  And if I put a M2 in Bench clamps I could get 9" groups at 1 and a half miles.


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Offline 68falcon

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2003, 11:38:31 AM »
LMAO I'll bet the goats did not appreciate your skill


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Offline mia389

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Alittle more realism please
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2003, 06:54:14 PM »
I used to like the snapshot events but stop doing them after all the fights were at 20+k. I really think they need to put an alt cap in them. If you slow down to let everyone wing your gonna lose cause the enemy is fullpower climb and will have that alt on you when u meet. That or the better climbing plane is gonna be at 32k and your only gonna be at 25k. Its like a race to see who can get higher. I remember a snapshot we did that was B17s on the deck to bomb factories in Germany and that was alot of fun. I think both sides had a ball in that one. Its been quite sometime since Ive been in a snapshot,,i kindof miss them but if climbing to 25k everytime I mize well goto the main and bnz guys :0