Author Topic: Israeli pilots refuse airstrikes (Read 1264 times)

straffo · « **Reply #30 on:** September 25, 2003, 02:02:18 PM »

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Originally posted by Eagler
yeah ur right again, an Israeli pilot is no better than a Pal bomber

silly me ...

Look like some Isreali pilot think that.

Tuomio · « **Reply #31 on:** September 25, 2003, 02:06:17 PM »

Animal · « **Reply #32 on:** September 25, 2003, 05:03:55 PM »

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Originally posted by Eagler
yeah ur right again, an Israeli pilot is no better than a Pal bomber

silly me ...

And when did I say that? please quote me. I challenge you.

A rocket barrage aimed at the village where a suicide bomber came from is not exactly a precision weapon.

At least some Israeli pilots can see this and refuse to continue this butchering. Sadly, the fools on the other side are driven by religious fanatism and I doubt they will put a stop to their killing.

Just like the people in the Israeli government. Now they are no better than a Pal bomber. Just the same, except they do the killing from the comfort of their lavish air conditioned offices.

Both sides are rotten, only difference is that we are allied to one, therefore they are not 'evil'.

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Originally posted by Hortlund
****ing traitors

Treason and desertion are hardly the same thing. And I would not even consider them deserters, since they are still willing to fight for their country. They just dont see any sense in butchering a bunch of innocent people, like you do.

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We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.
We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.
We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.
We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.
We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.
We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.
We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.
We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.
The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

550 signatures and counting.

Eagler · « **Reply #33 on:** September 25, 2003, 05:20:11 PM »

maybe these pilots can get together with the hamas ppl (who refuse any peace) hold hands and speak badly about their govs

these pilots need to be throw in the brig asap (and I think they will be) - you don't sign up for the military to follow orders only when you feel good about them

Animal · « **Reply #34 on:** September 25, 2003, 05:32:45 PM »

What if those orders involve purposely killing innocents, would you do it?

Its that kind of thinking that had a huge army under Hitlers total control.

Dissent is NOT treason.

Torque · « **Reply #35 on:** September 25, 2003, 05:55:47 PM »

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Originally posted by Eagler
maybe these pilots can get together with the hamas ppl (who refuse any peace) hold hands and speak badly about their govs

these pilots need to be throw in the brig asap (and I think they will be) - you don't sign up for the military to follow orders only when you feel good about them

I seem to remember a American pilot who disobeyed direct orders which in turn caused the death of four Canadian infantry and seriously wounded twenty others, is he in the brig?

Frogm4n · « **Reply #36 on:** September 25, 2003, 07:06:50 PM »

God blessed my socks. Only 20 bucks get them while they are holy!

davidpt40 · « **Reply #37 on:** September 25, 2003, 07:46:33 PM »

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About 500 Israeli reserve soldiers have chosen prison over military service in the Palestinian territories during the past three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence, claiming that Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is illegal.

Sending reserve troops to prison. Israelis can't do anything right.

Hortlund · « **Reply #38 on:** September 26, 2003, 04:35:06 AM »

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Originally posted by Animal
What if those orders involve purposely killing innocents, would you do it?

Its that kind of thinking that had a huge army under Hitlers total control.

Dissent is NOT treason.

Dissent in the army = treason. Period. And stop clowning around trying to compare this situation with "Hitlers total control", there is a world of difference, and it only leaves a bad taste in the mouth if you try to compare the two.

Anyway, in the military you dont go around deciding what orders to follow and what orders to refuse out of some fuzzy feeling in your stomach. Those pilots need to be taken out of the air force and sent to prison for a long time.

AVRO1 · « **Reply #39 on:** September 26, 2003, 07:58:24 AM »

So if you were in the army and they ordered you to kill villagers would do it?

The rules of wars forbid killing civilians on purpose.

Following those rules would make them war criminals.

These pilots dont want to be war criminal it would seem.

I wonder why?

Eagler · « **Reply #40 on:** September 26, 2003, 08:40:12 AM »

thank goodness the B17 & Lanc crews didn't feel the same way over Berlin eh?

or the B29 over Japan hmm?

Hortlund · « **Reply #41 on:** September 26, 2003, 09:05:43 AM »

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Originally posted by AVRO1
So if you were in the army and they ordered you to kill villagers would do it?

The rules of wars forbid killing civilians on purpose.

Following those rules would make them war criminals.

These pilots dont want to be war criminal it would seem.

I wonder why?

It doesnt quite work that way. People should stop posting on subjects they have no understanding of.

Nashwan · « **Reply #42 on:** September 26, 2003, 09:57:37 AM »

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thank goodness the B17 & Lanc crews didn't feel the same way over Berlin eh?

or the B29 over Japan hmm?

I get the impression it's not really the methods the pilots are objecting to, but rather the motives.

Some of these men are reservists and retired pilots who served with distinction in the 1967 and 73 wars, took part in the strike on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, etc. One of them, Brigadier Spector, shot down a Libyan passenger plane that had strayed over the Sinai by mistake, and took part in the attack on the USS Liberty.

In other words, they've served Israel well in the past, and taken part in questionable acts before, without complaint.

I think they recognise that the current Israeli campaign in the occupied territories is not only futile, but wrong as well.

Nilsen · « **Reply #43 on:** September 26, 2003, 10:03:18 AM »

Brave move from those pilots, I really respect what they have done.
Prooves that you can think even if you serve in the armed forces.

Im sure glad nobody that was under my command when i served sees this board

Hortlund · « **Reply #44 on:** September 26, 2003, 10:32:13 AM »

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Originally posted by GScholz
Hortlund, you know as well as I do that there is such a thing as an illegal order. If you as a soldier were given orders to do something you find contrary to military law and/or the Geneva Conventions it is your duty to refuse those orders. I'm sure that's how these pilots will (try) to justify their disobedience. I guess the courts will decide.

Of cource that is how they will try to justify their treason. That dog wont hunt though, since they are being ordered to drop their bombs on terrorist leaders, not on civilians. Collateral damage is a completely different thing, but the risk of collateral damage does *not* justify that kind of refusal to obey orders. Never has, never will...its considered a part of war.