AH and trim will it be like wb?

[-towd_]

here is one i havent seen asked.

i saw a post a while back that was a ien employee asking (ice somthin )if we could find any proof that the 190 (i think it was the 190) had trim controls.

this post was answered in the usual excellent concise way by the resident experts.(not being sarcastic)they said that the 190 had trim tabs that once set really did not need on the fly ajustment.same with the 109 (somthing about a ajustable "flying" rudder)


well my point is that most of the aircraft in ww2 (at least some of the luftwaff) did not have or need a trim setting as the design was good enough where trim was not much of a factor.

in warbirds the trim is a pain in the bellybutton and is from what i have read not realistic. (at least in some aircraft).this is a headach i think we can do without.(your opinion may vary i would love to hear why?)

now i know we need a auto pilot for beer runs and such but i am constantly fiddlin with my trim, if that is not realistic i am hopin it is not that way in Aces High.any alpha testers care to comment?


checkin every 20 min for the beta this just came to mind.  

[Sascha JG 77]

Good question..I'd love to see an answer to that too.

One more thing: From what I understand, the engine management will be more complex than in WB. Now does this take into account that the 190 for example did all that work for her pilot? ("Kommandogerät") or is engine management generic like the trim in WB?

Sascha

[-towd_]

were the luftwaff ahead of the allies in trim systems?

i ask because i seem to remember a old story i read about the first 190 captured by the allies seems it had what was refered to as a automatic trim  or some such system  (this has been years ago )can u explain more about the luftwaffs eng/trim automation? in particular how it would give an advantage in real life over non automated craft?

[Sascha JG 77]

From what I understand (I am in no way an expert) the "Kommandogerät" (verbatim: control device) acted as a primitive computer. The pilot only had to operate the throttle lever, and this gadget would make the proper adjustments (manifold, mixture, etc...) Later versions of the 190 gave the pilot the ability to override the automatic setting, to boost power in emergency.
That's what I know...the engine management buffs can prolly tell you more.  

As for trim I dunno. I ve read a post war analisys of the 190 and the 109 done by a british fighter pilot. He pretty much said the 109 was pushed over its limits with the G version and was terrible to fly. Rudder trim was non-existant so supposedly the pilot had to constantly apply pressure to one rudder to fly straight.
He was pretty impressed with the 190 though: "every bit a fighter" were his words.

I remember that he mentioned that the 190  had no trim either (dunno if only for 1 axis of movement or all) but that it didn't need it cause the design was so good.

I lost the link to that evaluation but I'm sure that some kind soul out there still has it.

BTW: The german company "Flugwerk" are rebuilding a 190 A-8 from the original blueprints. So they should know this bird like nobody else.
Maybe a good idea to drop them a line and ask for an evaluation when you guys at HTC start to sit down and model the 190.. *hint, hint*  

 http://www.flugwerk.de


Sascha JG 77 "Herz As!"

[This message has been edited by Sascha JG 77 (edited 09-22-1999).]

[Jochen]

Sascha, I believe that Flugwerk's (the name is flugwerk so they can use letters FW in plane registration) are about 25-30% lighter when compared to real thing. Pilot armour and weapons are omitted I guess.

Of course if they use that Flugwerk plane to model a AH Fw 190A-8 performance, I would say there will be lots of 'uber FW' claims in sight  

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Oblt. jochen 'Stern von Afrika' 2./ Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika'

[Brick]

Aren't they doing a 109, too?  Last time I was at their site (a few months ago) I think I remember seein' that.  Cool to see a company building old (new) warbirds!

Andy

[Sascha JG 77]

They'll finish the 190s first (about 20 planes or so) and then plan to rebuild a 109.

I wonder what kind of engine they re gonna put into the 109, I m pretty sure they won't use anything that will spoil the lines of the aircraft like the merlin did.

Sascha

[jaeger]

As for the Trim
As far as I checked in the Books the 109 had elevator trim for at least the F model and the following. With Rudder Trim I'm not sure. It is hard to figure out. I would guess they put the Rudder Trim in for the G-5 Modell. Might be The G4 even. One reference said that the G6 has trim tabs on all steering components. sorry for beeing unable to explain this better but my technical english is a little weak to say at least. For sure all the late modells (K) had Trimm on all controll surfaces. recently I read a storry of an British Pilot flying an early 109 Modell (not sure if it was an E or an F Modell) He reported that it was an hard task to fly that babe at high speeds due to the fact that the pilot had to stomp on the Rudder permanently. So as for all what the books are saying I believe there were some trim tabs on the rudder that were adjusted prior to take off and then for a given speed. But I might be wrong with that one.



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jaeger

The best approach to a battle....is surprise, make your attack and disappear and start a new attack. Don't get engaged and make it a dogfight.
Lt.General Adolf Galland, Luftwaffe

[funked]

The Krauts were really strong in the mechanical gizmo area.  The Fw 190 did indeed have an autopilot system.  And it used a moving horizontal stabilizer for pitch trim, an innovation which is retained on just about every large aircraft in service today.  Aileron and rudder trim was set on the ground  and was not adjustable in flight.  Every pilot account I've read says this wasn't an issue - adjustment wasn't needed.

The Germans were also well ahead in engines and engine control systems.  Guy named Benz kinda invented the IC engine, and the Germans really never lost that lead, even to this day.

These guys were racing 650hp F-1 cars right before the war.  Things that would run rings around a contemporary Indy car.  One of these vehicles ran 270mph on a public road.

A Bf 109 variant (I think Bf 209) had the world speed record at 470mph in the late 30's.  US/UK didn't get near this speed for years.

Things like fuel injection and automatic blower/ignition/fuel control on the BMW 801.  For an engine of given displacement, size and weight, a BMW, D-B, or Jumo put out more power than a comparable US or UK type.  

And of course Jumo had an operational, effective jet powerplant that was used in the Me 262 and Ar 234.

They weren't bad at airframes either.
The F-86 was very closely modeled on a Messerschmitt prototype.  And it used leading-edge slats which first appeared on a fighter in 1935 (Bf 109).

The Mig-15 prototype was built from a design created by Kurt Tank (of Focke Wulf fame).

These planes evolved into the F-100 (US) and Mig 17/Mig 19/Mig-21.  And FIAT, Dassault, and Sukhoi built planes that were basically copies of the F-86 or Mig-15.  So German fighter designs pretty much guided the first 10 years of development after the war.

The Germans weren't as good as the US at actually manufacturing this stuff of course.  But as far as pure design, they were amazing.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 09-23-1999).]

[Jekyll]

Or how about the Sanger?  A liquid oxygen/hydrogen fuelled suborbital bomber with a range of more than 20,000 miles at over 100,000 feet?  

OK, so the Germans never actually built the thing, but engine and wind tunnel testing had been completed.  And I believe an airframe had been constructed by war's end.

And if the war had spilled over into 1946 or 47? Hmmm.

[Pirado]

"in warbirds the trim is a pain in the bellybutton and is from what i have read not realistic"


Also, "sector radar" isnt realistic.

I hate this thing! I dont understand how it will work.. but i hate it!  



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Pirado
"The first rule of all air combat is to see the opponent first."
Adolf Galland